崔娃专访Instagram CEO：如果用户没有社交隔离，会不会被封禁帐号？

- What's goin' on everybody? Trevor Noah here, host of The Daily Show. Coming to you from quarantine, how y'all doin'? Gonna be chatting to Mr. Mosseri, Adam Mosseri the head of Instagram. Mr. Mosseri how you doin'?

- Good how you doing? 

- I mean I could be better, I think everyone could be better. How are you? 

- Hanging in there, I think is how I would put it. 

- Yeah, is this what Instagram was made for? Were you guys planning this from the beginning? Is that one day we were all going to be trapped indoors and all have to look at pictures of each other while trying to stay sane? 

- (laughs) Not exactly. I do think we were, I think Instagram was made to bring people together for sure, but we certainly not thinking about this insane situation that we find ourselves in today. 

- Let me ask you a few questions just in and around what's happening now. This is one of the strangest times we've ever been in. You know I'm reading some of the questions people have in the comments here. And one of the big thing Instagram has the power to do is connect people with each other. But it also has the ability to connect people with information. You know we see nurses on Instagram, we see doctors on Instagram telling us what they need. Some of the first videos about coronavirus came out on Instagram. You know whether it was doctors in China, whether it was doctors in Italy. They were showing us what was going on, on the ground. What is Instagram doing to try and piece all this information together so we can separate fact from fiction? 

- At high level just generally related to COVID-19 and the crisis around the pandemic, we're trying to keep people safe and bring people together and most of keeping people safe is around getting access to good information. So we actually put a banner at the top of Instagram for everyone worldwide, pointing them to different local health organizations. 

Like here in the U.S. the CDC, to get good accurate information about the virus. That's the kind of thing that we never actually do. We're trying to raise awareness through the stay at home sticker which people are using, just encourage people to stay home because that's one of the best pieces of advice I think you can give. And it's more meaningful coming from people you follow than coming from a company like ours. Actually it's been used for than 100 million times so far which has been exciting to see. And then trying to make that bad information, any risky information that's misinformation, off Instagram entirely. 

- Have I lost you? 

- I see you. Am I back? 

- Yeah, I lost you for a second you were talking about misinformation. 

- Also trying to make sure we remove any misinformation related to COVID-19 that's dangerous. You know you see these terrible pranks like drink bleach and it'll cure you kind of stuff. So getting that stuff off the platform entirely. 

- Right, this is also a strange time because like on the one hand you have people who are at home people who are stressed out, afraid, etc. And then it feels like this is one of those moments where social media can be the best thing or the worst thing. Some people are being crazy and angry online and then other people are creating memes. Like you said there's all these challenges. The push-up challenge, people are singing at home. Is Instagram working to amplify this content? Are you trying to bring people together behind these common causes or is it jut happening organically and you're just letting it go? 

- A lot of it has happening organically. We're trying to figure out how we can help amplify it. And how we can do things really quickly. And normally if we have an idea, like we're seeing all these amazing lives happen right now. John Legend and Chrissy Tegan do a wedding for their daughter's Luna's stuffed animals over the weekend. Like these things are amazing. We're trying to figure out we can amplify that. Normally we would try to build something inside of Instagram, so you can go and sort of see what's coming up. But there's no time. So we're using the add Instagram account in that case, which has a lot of followers, hundreds of millions of followers to push out information about what we see coming up. So in general we're just trying to figure out how we can duct tape solutions together quickly to try and amplify the good that's happening on the platform. As opposed to building things that might take weeks, given that how pressing the need is to help out. 

- Do you see a world where you would be doing that? Are you guys working on something for the future, because we don't know how long we're gonna be indoors. Are you adding something that could be released in a few months. Is there a new type of Instagram if we just stuck inside for a few months? 

- Uh maybe, I mean we're seeing people are messaging way more, they're video chatting way more, they're going live way more. You see this, it varies from country to country but those are pretty consistent trends. But we're also just trying to figure out what can we do in a matter of weeks, not just days, given that challenge is gonna be. They're gonna be great and they're gonna take time. Even if we come out shelter in place, the lockdown, the economic impacts are significant. So one of the things we're looking at right now are what can we do for creators on Instagram but also small businesses like retailers and service providers. 

Like your local hair cutting place or your local restaurant, can we provide any relief there? Can we do anything for creators who make a living on Instagram? Can we do anything around donations? So, these things would take weeks and not days to do but we are spending a bunch of time there. But also trying to figure out on the mental health side. Because there's a physical health risk here. There's a huge economic risk, but this is really taxing for a lot of people in a really significant way. And so is there anything we can do in that space as well? Given that we're not mental health experts, is another area. So we'll see, we'll see how the next couple of weeks evolve. 

- Is there like a thing you can do online to just get rid of all negative information? Is there like a filter we could tag on Instagram, where we say, hey, we don't want to see or hear anything negative is that a possibility? 

- That's not quite there. But you can block certain comments, certain words in your comments, which is pretty valuable for certain people. But no, that's not nearly as ambitious as what you're talking about. We're thinking more along the lines of getting people emotional support. Making sure they can have a network to lean on if they're in times of crisis. 

- What does that mean when you say that? Because one thing that I've always talked a lot about is I've heard stories depression. I've talked about how hard it can be to cope with anxiety or depression. How, during times like this one of the hardest things is to not maintain contact with the people you normally do. What is Instagram doing to help with that? Because on the one hand with Instagram, as you guys have always said, you have to balance the world of making people go crazy because they're spending too much time on Instagram but now people have to spend more time on these platforms to connect with people. So how are you helping people maintain their mental health? 

- Well, a few different things. I think the most important thing is just helping people connect with their loved ones that they really care about. If you're separated, I mean my brother lives in L.A., my sister lives in Berlin. I'm really close to both of them. I use Instagram to stay in touch with them. But beyond that, we're seeing other things happen. We're seeing mental health experts like therapists and psychologist use Instagram to connect with their patients. Lizzo's done a bunch of meditations with the flute and the whole crazy thing, going live on Instagram. So we're seeing a lot of this happen organically which is great. So we just want to know when possible can we amplify that kind of thing. 

- Right, are you doing anything? 'Cause I feel like everyone asks the head of companies what their companies are doing. Are you okay at home, what are you doing? Are you doing any of the challenges? You doing a push-up challenge? 

- I should do the push up challenge. I haven't done that yet. I think someone challenged me recently. I got two little boys and another on the way. So for me personally it's been mostly about how do I take care of them? 

- How old are they? 

- Four, Nico's four and Blaze's is two and then the other one is, is it April yet? It's almost April so May. So it's gonna be born in the middle of all of this. 

- How do you explain to your four-year-old why you can't leave the house and live your normal life? 

- It's tough, I've tried. I explained that there is, he doesn't understand the word disease. So there's like a sickness that's spreading around and it happens, you know usually when people sneeze and that sort of thing. And so we want to stay clear just to be safe for a while. He's got a lot of energy though, so he's just gonna explode pretty soon. But I think there's a lot of parents out there particularly if you're working right now and you have little kids and you don't have any childcare. You're moonlighting your job, you're trying to call into meetings during the day and you're trying to be a parent and homeschool. It's just wild. And also if you're single and you live in a tiny little apartment in New York, where things are pretty rough right now and you're incredibly isolated. That's also really brutal. So everyone's dealing with their own challenges. 

- I've got some questions from the community that are really interesting and remember guys this is Trevor Noah here host of the Daily Show. I'm chatting to Adam Mosseri here who is the head of Instagram. So if you have any questions for any of us, just send them through and I'll ask them. I've got a few that I've pulled up here from the people. Does Instagram connect users to local opportunities if they want to volunteer or donate? Is Instagram, is here any part of the platform that helps you find these opportunities? 

- There are some and we're trying to build more. So right now you can raise money for non profits through the donation sticker and stories. We have a, as of last week, a section dedicated to COVID-19-related health organizations. And we're actually matching up to $10 million for the United Nations Foundation at the World Health Organization and the CDC. 

But what we are interested in is what more can we do? How can we help connect the community that uses Instagram to the small businesses that are gonna be suffering in such an intense way. Or to the creators that they love on the platform or to their local shops or restaurants.

And so that's one of the things we're actively currently exploring. 'Cause look at the end of the day the government can help at a scale that no private company can and I think they're moving to try to do so. But provisioning a bunch of capital is one thing, distributing it is another. And so we're hoping that we can help if we can bridge a little bit because it's gonna be really tough on all the local businesses that all of us know and love. 

- Here's a big question that's coming through from a lot of people in the community and it's around false information that would be in Instagram. It's really hard because on the one hand you have some people who are joking and clearly joking about ways to cure coronavirus. Or they're talking about, like creating a meme or they're messing around. And then you have other people who are purposefully trying to misinform the public about what they can do about coronavirus. How is Instagram figuring out, first of all, which of the comments are detrimental and what are you doing about this? 

- So with figuring out what issues or what claims are or what comments are detrimental, we're working with organizations like the World Health Organization to identify dangerous false claims and then we use people but also technology to try and go and fan out and find all the examples of those claims but we rely heavily on experts.

I think the piece of context though that's worth flagging real quick is that generally we tend to be very worried about putting a chilling effect on speech. We try to be a place where people can express themselves and tell their stories. So we've taken a lot of criticism over the years for being too lenient. When it comes to COVID-19 and misinformation that's specifically creates health risks, we are being actually the opposite. We're being quite conservative. We're taking it off Instagram entirely. So want to be clear that we care a lot about expression, we care about speech in general. But these are extenuating circumstances and under which we're gonna act differently because I think the world needs it. 

- All right I got a question here for both of us and that is from IgniteStringTheory. Hey Trevor and Adam how do you think our world will look after the coronavirus has passed? 

- Do you go first, you want me to go first? 

- You can go first, I wanna hear your answer. 

- I think you're gonna see a number of broad shifts that have already started accelerate. So you're seeing people move more and more shopping online. You see people video chat and do this type of thing more and more. I think you're gonna see three years of these sort of shifts happen in three months. 

And some of it will snap back but it will not snap back all of the way. But I also think it's gonna be a while. Like even after all these, each local lockdown or shelter in place opens up, I don't think people are gonna immediately go out and party. I think people are going to be careful about large gatherings for a period of time. One interesting question is, if it goes on for a really long time, do people still shake hands? 

Like I don't know there's all sorts of crazy ideas you can imagine. But I think that's like the psychological impact is gonna be significant. My great grandmother lived through the Great Depression, I'm not comparing this recession to the Great Depression, that was much longer. But she was 96 when she passed and she still couldn't spend money. So you could imagine certain effects, but concerns about health or concerns about economics or money might last a long time depending on how long this lasts, I don't know. 

- Yeah, I feel like whenever someone asks me what do I think the world will be like after coronoavirus? I think the question I first posed back to them is how long do you think coronavirus will last? I think if we went back to our normal lives in a week I don't think the world would change. We would all come out of it like it was a forced mini vacation weird moment in time. And I think people would be more brazen than ever. 

There would be certain hubris because everyone would be like, oh we survived it wasn't a thing. I think if it goes for a really long time and we start to see the effects economically and physically. If you start seeing huge numbers of people dying, if you start seeing a ton of people not being able to afford food. I think we're gonna reach a tipping point where society then decides what's more important staying indoors or going out and getting food? Working or not working, etc. 

And it's gonna be interesting to see how governments manage that period and then I think after that, whatever they've done in that period determines what we live like afterwards. I've already seen, just from surveys and polls that have been conducted, people's perspectives on certain issues are changing. For instance, now people care more about medicine and what access they have to healthcare. Now people are thinking differently about their healthcare premiums and universal healthcare. It's a completely different conversation right now. Even just job security. 

You know there are countries around the world where people have protection. The government says, if you are unemployed, we'll find a way to keep you eating and living until you get another job. A lot of countries don't have that. And so I think to what you're saying as much as business is gonna change, I think politics is gonna change depending on how long this coronavirus threat goes for. 

Because if it goes for long enough people are just gonna wanna make sure that we're never in the same situation every again. Because you see countries like the U.K. where they said they'll pay a percentage of people's salaries for the duration of this crisis and they understand the economies' gonna take a knock. But they gonna figure it out. So the question is how long does it last, determines how much it will change the world is what I think. 

- Makes sense. And I think you're gonna see, I mean unemployment is spiking in a huge way in any country that's been affected so far. And I think if that's if people stay unemployed for a long period of time that will also change a lot of how people think. We're seeing record levels here in the U.S. already and you know we're already a couple weeks into taking it seriously. So, it's gonna be, look, we're gonna remember this year and we're gonna talk about it for a long time. 

- Right and I got two interesting questions. First quick one that just came up was why are you in a closet? 

- I'm in my garage. I'm lucky and privileged enough to have a garage so I can go, when I'm working and hide from my children. 

- (laughs) We want see the kids running in the background. That's what you need. 

- You joke, that happened last week. I was doing a live, we were doing an Instagram Live to the Instagram team giving them an update, because we're trying to take care of them too. And Monica had the garage, my wife, and the kids just ran in and they got in a fight because it was two boys. So I had to try and play referee. You don't want to see it, you don't want to see it. 

- And then the other question was really interesting if I just scroll back to it, it was what are your opinions on the fact that this is actually good for the planet? That we as a society are taking a break from polluting, from whether it be our cars, our emissions from factories, etc. What are your opinions on that idea? 

- I don't know I haven't thought about that enough to have a good opinion on it. I will say, I think climate change is one of the most, if not the most important long-term challenge we face. So it's an area that I care a lot about. But I have not thought about how specific could this pandemic will affect our work there. I think that could cut either way honestly, we'll see. Actually depending on how long it lasts. The longer it lasts, the longer the economy's hurt. Maybe people care about climate less or maybe they care more about health and they care about climate more. You could see that one going either way. 

- Right, let me ask you a crazy question. Could Instagram create like a feature where people who are gathered together who shouldn't be together, like their accounts get blocked? Like if they're not social distancing, could you guys do that? 

- I don't know if we can know who's supposed to be together or not be together but yeah, theoretically you could try and do something. 

- Right now right we're not supposed to be in the same place unless you live with people or those are the people you've been incubated with. 

- Right exactly. 

- So my question is, can Instagram shut down people's accounts until they separate, is that a thing you can do? 

- Technically we could try. I don't think for a bunch of detail reasons that aren't that interesting. I don't think we'd be that good at it. So we'd do it to people who didn't deserve it and not do it to people who did probably too often. 

- Like people who live in the same apartment building their phones might just get cut off. 

- Yeah, like if you're in a city and you're all in the same building. You're doing good because you're on floor 10, I'm only floor 20, but we're like, nope, you're now blocked. We might be kinda rough. 

- Okay, okay, there's some fun questions that are coming through from people online. And they're saying, oh, yeah, I guess this is a question that I can ask you, Instagram, etc. Is can you help people find toilet paper? Is there a way that Instagram can help with this? 

- If there was I would I wish (laughs) I could get it for myself. My wife is really anxious about the amount of toilet paper we have in our house. No, we're seeing other things happen, not like toilet paper finding. But one of the restaurants in my neighborhood is posting pictures of what they're having for take-out everyday and then you can call and you can go pick it up without going in to the space. So we're seeing all sort of really interesting use cases bubble up. But toilet paper isn't one I've found yet. But look, if you got connection just comment here. 

- I think this is one of those moments where you could create something amazing here. You create a feature on Instagram where we can all tag toilet paper for each other. 

- Just a tab dedicated to toilet paper. 

- We just need a toilet paper tab on Instagram. 

- You can imagine the icon, just a nice little outline it's gonna be perfect. 

- Just a little thing. Someone had a good comment, they said we can just use water. If you have a bidet, I mean this is not a problem in your world. (Adam laughs) So that makes a lot of sense. Adam I mean everybody is out there, well in there, I should say, trapped in doors living their lives as a human being, two questions. How has this affected you the most as a human being before business and also what do you miss most about normal life? 

- As a human being, I don't know if this is, I don't know if I can distill it down to one thing. I mean the thing that I'm most trying to figure out is how do I support my family and do my job well given that my job has gotten much more intense as you can imagine. And my family situation with my wife who's like eightish months pregnant, maybe seven and a half is intense. So that's weighing both of those things at the same time is a lot. But I don't know how it's affected me yet. I think I'll know once we get through it. Right now it's about adrenaline and working and being smart and spending time. I just do two things, I'm here in the garage working and I'm in the house with the family. 

- Right. 

- So I don't know yet. And what do I miss most. I just miss seeing people I care about and love in person. It's just, I don't know, I'm a hugger. And you can't hug right now. And so I miss whether it's really close family or friends, I miss that a lot. What do you miss the most? 

- What do I miss the most? I'd be lying to you if I said I missed anything. I mean I don't like the tension in the world. I don't like how many people are being affected by this physically and emotionally, but for me personally I'll never lie to you and say that my life has changed even in the slightest. I stay home, I don't like hugging people. (Adam laughs) I don't like to shake hands. I don't like getting close to people physically. Like I've always been this person. Even when they were showing people how to wash their hands. I was like, wait, how were people washing their hands? (Adam laughs) But yeah, there were people like you left out your thumbs. I was like, how do you wash your hands without doing your thumbs, I don't know, I don't know. All I know is for me personally I won't lie and say my life has changed all too dramatically. I stay at home the way I always did. I'm online. I make my show from home. 

- Which is amazing by the way. 

- Play video games. And now I have an excuse to not go out and see people. 'Cause people always stress me out, they'd always be like, why don't you come outside, it's so sunny, it's such a beautiful day. You're wasting the day. Now, I'm like coronavirus, baby. I can't go anywhere. 

- You got your go-to excuse. 

- Yeah, it's just become my life. So I feel like there's a lot of introverts who are enjoying just that aspect of coronavirus. So I wish we could have this without any of the negative economic effects or anybody's health being affected. In fact, after coronavirus, I'm gonna stay indoors and I'll tell people I'm doing it in case of coronavirus forever going forward in the future. 

- Yeah, yeah, you're just careful. Just really careful there. There could be another one, You don't really know. 

- All right well Adam, I know that's all the time you got man, thank you so much for joining me. 

- Thanks for having me.