视频为访谈40-47分内容
以下文字为访谈0-30分钟内容
00:05
我们邀请到一位杰出人士

today we have a very distinguished guest


00:08
吉姆·鲁特先生

Jim Rutt

00:10
我们将讨论言论自由问题

We will talk about freedom of speech

00:15
高校这方面却缺乏

US college campuses lack thereof

00:20
我们将有很棒讨论

We will have some good discussions I believe

00:22
那么首先在开始讨论前

So first of all without much do

00:25
莉迪亚请给新观众介绍一下你的平台、油管频道

Lydia can you just talk a little bit about your platform，YouTube channel for our new viewers

00:35
大家新年好 Jim新年好

Happy New Year everybody Happy New Year Jim

00:41
我是创办者 办了陌上美国

I'm the founder of Moshang USA

00:43
2018年 我们先是基于微信办公号

So Moshang USA was founded in 2018. First we based on Wechat(equivalent to FB in Chinese) as a public blog

00:51
我们成长很快近30万粉丝 3年实现的

We grew very fast close to 300k followers within 3-yr

00:56
遗憾的是去年9月被微信风（半年） 

Unfortunately, WeChat shut us down last Sept

01:19
言论自由无比珍贵 我们要为言论自由而战

freedom of speech is dear to our heart. We want to reserve and fight for freedom speech

01:51
谢谢莉迪亚

Thank you Lydia

01:53
吉姆现在我来介绍一下您 欢迎补充

Jim let me try to introduce you, of course you can add

01:58
你目前是MIT言论自由联盟创始人之一

you are right now one of the founders of MIT free speech Alliance

02:06
我们后面会具体介绍MIT言论自由联盟

We will talk a lot about MIT Free Speech Alliance

02:11
你是MIT75级毕业生 我出生于那年

you graduated from MIT in 1975, that was the year when I was born

02:21
我2002年入学MIT 

I went to MIT in 2002. 

02:28
目前你在办Jim Rutt秀电台系列节目

so currently you're the host of host of Jim Roth Show podcast serials

02:35
该节目针对前沿的科技、面对未来的经济、政治和社会

I think the podcast examined cutting-edge thinking in science and technology of future of our economic，political and social system

02:44
非常有意思

so it's quite interesting

02:46
你事业很成功

You had very impressive career

02:51
我从网上看到的

I noticed on the website

02:54
你曾是智库圣塔菲学院的主席 这是个智库机构

you were the past chairman of the Santa Fe Institute，a think tank

03:00
你做过网络解局公司的CEO 那是20年前

and you also were CEO of Network Solutions two decades ago

03:06
你是首位CTO 服务于汤普森·路透社

U were the first CTO I think the Chief Technology Officer for Thompson Reuters

03:14
我猜想那时候

I guess at that time maybe

03:18
路透社的观点可能更多元

there were more diverse views at Reuters

03:24
相对现在而言 不过是我的猜想

than now. But that's kind of my speculation

03:30
你创立领导了多家高科技公司

And you founded and led several technology companies

03:37
贯穿你的职业人生

throughout your career

03:39
你还制作了一个奥斯卡奖电影

and you even produced the award-winning movie

03:42
并由此开发了一个流行的游戏

and created a popular mobile game

03:45
非常了不起

Very impression

03:48
有什么你办不到的事吗

What you can‘t do, Jim?

03:50
我什么都乐意常试

I do all kinds of things

03:52
我跟随自己的兴趣做事

I follow when I think interesting

03:57
有时会遇到大失败但有时又会带来极棒的结果

Sometime it leads to the cliff you are fall off sometime it leads to very good places

04:05
总是如此起伏

always being that ways

04:06
我鼻子能感觉有趣的方向

I follow my nose my nose knows to find what's interesting

04:11
什么是前沿

near the cutting edge

04:13
补充与这个对话有关的一点

probably relevant to this conversation

04:15
我是参与构建网络世界

I was involved with building the online world

04:19
从最早开始的首批人

from the very earliest days

04:21
我曾为叫资源的一家公司工作 那是1980年

I went to work for a company called Source back 1980


04:39
80年在资源公司

at the Source in 1980

04:42
我们已经有了今天网络的雏形

we had much of what's on the web today but

04:44
只是文本格式 一秒30字节

in text mode only 30 characters a second

04:48
上一小时就要10美金

$10 an hour

04:50
难以置信 不过当时世界上独有

believe it or not but there was nothing like an else on Earth

04:54
很快我们用户激增

quickly we had tens of thousands

04:58
从几万到几十万地指数增加

and hundreds of thousands of customers

05:00
我们有邮箱有聊天工具

and we had mail we had chat

05:01
有公告区所有早期的一切

we had bulletin boards we had the earliest things

05:05
类似社交媒体的所有雏形

that you might point to as a predecessor to social media

05:07
有新闻 股票信息 网购

we had newswires stock prices online shopping

05:10
我们做了第一次天主教在线忏悔聊天

We had the first Catholic confession done over and chat

05:14
还是经华盛顿大主教批准

with the approval of the Archbishop of Washington

05:17
我参与了网络世界最早构建

I was actually involved with the online world

05:23
至少是与用户有关的各部分

at least the consumer side of it

05:26
从最早的时候 我见证了网络科技的更新换代

since the very beginning I've seen all the iterations

05:31
现在的互联网是最新代了

What's the internet is only the most recent one

05:34
现在也不会是最终版本

probably not the last one

05:36
你是互联网最早先驱之一了

You are an pioneer in the internet technology

05:42
我记得最早亚马逊版本 也是文本

I remember I saw the Amazons first version was a text-only

05:48
您见证了网络从一个婴儿成为巨人 这个巨人影响着我们日常生活

Basically you saw the internet from a baby into a giant. Now the giant affects our life in a daily basis

05:58
是的 我回想80年代 比如1981年可能一共就一万来人用户而不是科教届 

Exactly I can think about 1980s By 1981 there were maybe a hundred thousands humans consumers not academic

06:09
全球在使用网络的就这么多

online in the world

06:12
差不多就一万来人

right a hundred thousands

06:16
大部分是男的 大概96%男性

Most of them are males about 96% male

06:20
在那时候的情况就是如此

at the time and

06:22
大部分是关心技术的人之类的

mostly technical people Etc

06:25
需要很有钱因为当时使用网络太贵

had to be fairly affluent because it was very very expensive

06:29
就是你说的一个小种子

and that you say this tiny little seed

06:31
发展成我们生活的今日世界

in some ways grown up to be this world we live in today

06:37
非常有趣和充满让人好奇的事物

it's been very interesting and curious

06:39
也有很多起伏波折

but lots of twists and turns I will say

06:41
我记得互联网的早期发展MIT参与其中

I think the beginning of internet had connections to MIT right

06:46
来自军事项目的研究拨款

through some military research of funding

06:50
是的 最早叫做国防高精技术网

Yeah there was a DARPA net originally

06:53
鲍勃·卡恩和另外一个家伙（忘了名字）

Bob Kahn and who is the other dude(Vint Cerf)

06:58
2个研发了国防网络的人

2 guys were basically researchers created the thing

07:01
很聪明也没有计划民用化

It was clever never intended for commercial use

07:06
初始目的是开发一应急网络防备核战争

it was designed to be a survivable network in case of nuclear war

07:11
没有中央处理系统让互联网

because it had no Center that makes the internet

07:16
不同就是只要有部分比特字符存在

different is that if any bits of it survived

07:19
服务器会让它们合到一块

the routers can stitch themselves back together

07:22
事实上基于此建立民用互联网不是好选择

truth was not a good choice to build a commercial Network on

07:26
原因有多种

for a number of reasons but

07:28
不过因为其他原因 那我可以讲几小时了

for other reasons which I can talk about for hours

07:32
在1990年关键时间前后主导了走向

it did win during that critical period around 1990

07:35
那是个分叉路口发展时期

when there were still alternatives out there

07:38
至少通过那个时段我们拥有了互联网

and we can have internet at least through this era

07:44
也就是现在网络世界一切的基础

that's the platform on which all these other things are growing

07:47
包括莉迪亚现在用的各种平台

including Lydia's all her various platforms

07:52
利用网络世界的所有这些可供性的例子

That's an example of taking advantage of all these affordances

07:56
都是网络世界共给我们的可能

network world offers to us

07:58
了不起 我们确实找到合适的人

Great definitely we found the right person

08:01
你是最初几十个人之一

since you are among the first dozens of people

08:05
创立和主导了互联网发展

who are building and leading the internet

08:07
一旦我们遇到网络不公平

every unfair treatment from internet we got

08:10
我们就来找您要公道

we will come to you for help

08:13
我们是通过MIT FSA联系上的

Okay since we got connected through MIT Free Speech Alliance

08:18
能否跟我们更多介绍一下该组织(MFSA)

Could you tell us more about this organization

08:21
你在MIT FSA里做了什么工作

How did you get involved with MIT free speech Alliance

08:27
是的MIT言论自由联盟(MFSA)

yes MIT free speech Alliance

08:29
现在有几百成员

a group now of many hundreds of

08:33
都是MIT的校友学生教师科研人员

MIT alums student-faculty researchers and

08:37
还有MIT的朋友 都认同

friends of MIT affiliate with the idea of

08:39
我们需要更多的言论和观点自由

we need more free speech more viewpoint diversity

08:45
在MIT能有更多的质疑的权利

and free inquiry at MIT

08:47
不过这组织还很新

but it's very recent it only

08:49
是21年10月才成立的

started in late October 2021

08:53
我自己和两个MIT的朋友

myself and two friends of mine

08:57
通过邮件交流

from MIT were involved in an email exchange just

09:00
沟通各种事

things in general, right

09:02
突然就发生了艾伯特教授事件

suddenly the Dorian Abbott Affair happened

09:07
MIT取消邀请该著名地球物理家来演讲

MIT disinvited the distinguished geophysicist from giving a talk

09:14
内容关于系外行星大气

about exoplanet atmospheres the atmospheres of

09:17
绕我们以外的其他恒星行星

planets around other stars than our own

09:20
很学术专业的演讲

very technical talk and

09:23
但是他发表过一个评论文

but he had published an essay

09:28
他跟斯坦福教授伊万一起

he had another person(Prof. Ivan, Stanford) published an assay

09:31
在新闻周刊发评论

in Newsweek magazine

09:33
这是美国发行量很好的一款杂志

General circulation news magazine the United States

09:36
文章挑战了一大观点

where he had challenged the idea of

09:40
就是多元（结果）平等和包容

diversity equity and inclusion (DEI)

09:44
提出了取代方案叫做

and it proposed an alternative called

09:46
择优 公平 机会平等

Merit Fairness and Equality

09:48
这在我们当下

and as happens in our world today

09:52
常见现象发生了 一群推特暴民

all too often in my opinion a Twitter mob fromed

09:54
哇 竟有人反对

wow we get having anybody talking against

09:58
多元（结果）平等包容(DEI)

diversity equity & inclusion (DEI)

10:00
即使他们有个合理的取代方案

even they have a perfectly reasonable alternative proposal

10:03
我们也要找MIT

so we are going to demand MIT

10:07
取消讲座邀请哪怕他不任职MIT

disinvite this person even though he is not a MIT employee

10:10
不应该受MIT政策管制

had no impact got MIT policy

10:12
有没有严格的科学模型

Was there a strict scientific model

10:15
推特暴徒引发了一大堆网络恶攻

The twitter mob raised a whole bunch of stink

10:18
在我们看来非常愚蠢地

in our view very foolishly

10:21
MIT的领导层向这些网络暴民投降

MIT leadership succumbed to the Mob

10:25
取消邀请这个知名科学家

disinvited this distinguished scientist

10:28
来做学术讲座

from giving his talk and

10:30
我们三个人发了一圈邮件

so the three of us were emailing around

10:36
就MIT发生的一些事

about issues about MIT

10:38
有的关于DEI有的是其他事

anyway some around DEI some around other thing

10:42
我们觉得 真混蛋

and we said "Damn it!"
10:44
情况太不对
This is not right

10:47
我们来联系一些朋友看

So let's reach out to some of our friends and see if

10:49
是否能找到志同道合的

we can pull some people together

10:51
很快我们集合了几十个人

quickly we had a few dozen then

10:56
很快也找到全美校友联盟组织

we came across the Americans of the alumni free-speech Alliance

10:58
AFSA就是

AFSA turned out that

11:02
已经有其他美国五所高校

five other universities in United States

11:06
已经开始成立支持言论自由的组织

already established free speech organizations

11:10
包括康大 华盛顿李 普林斯顿

Cornell Washington and Lee Princeton

11:13
佛吉尼亚大学和戴维森大学

University of Virginia and Davison

11:16
就是这头5所

were the first five and

11:18
我们觉得这不错

then we said okay so
11:21
去了解了一下他们在做什么
we kind of look what they were doing and you know

11:23
就像如今很多创业者一样

like many entrepreneurs over there were over the years

11:27
我们偷学其中好经验为己所用

we just stole some good ideas and and added some of our own

11:31
做了大同小异的事情

and did something similar and something different

11:34
很快我们成立MIT FSA

quickly we sparked off MIT free speech Alliance

11:37
这是个合法独立组织

and it is a standard alone legal entity

11:42
非MIT官方组织

not officially affiliated with MIT

11:45
在申请成立501(c)3组织

It's now filed for 501(c)3 status

11:49
这样捐助人能获得免税

so we can actually accept today tax-deductible contributions

11:53
有了一些委员会成员

and has a number of committees that

11:57
负责运作不同事务项目

are in operation working on various projects

12:01
增加显着性和施压

increase the salience of and frankly pressure

12:07
MIT管理层保护言论自由

the administration about protecting Free Speech

12:12
自由质疑尤其增加校园视角多样

free inquiry and particularly Viewpoint diversity on campus

12:17
是的太重要了

Yeah that's very important

12:19
我们的网站是

and our website for anyone wants to check it out

12:24
MITfreespeech.org

12:27
是 那么以我所知

Yeah so as I know

12:31
不需要是MIT毕业的

you don't have to be a MIT graduate or hold a degree from MIT

12:35
你也可以加入我们

you can free to join us

12:37
注册为MFSA成员加入这个行动

and sign as a member to join this course, right

12:40
是的你将每周收到我们的新闻邮件

correct and you'll get our weekly email newsletter

12:46
更新近况和新活动

tell you what's going on pointing you to events

12:49
除了MIT言论自由联盟的进展还

MIT free-speech Alliance but also

12:53
有其他人就言论自由的行动

other people doing work in the Free Speech area

12:56
我们也很高兴找到很多盟友

that's been very gratifying to find so many allies

12:59
比如FIRE组织和非常学院的人

people like FIRE and heterodox Academy

13:04
和其他同仁们所以我们很快就

and other folks so we've become very rapidly part of

13:07
成了维护言论自由运动中一部分

the wider ecosystem around free speech free inquiry and viewpoint diversity

13:13
很好 说到这个 吉姆

Yeah talking about that Jim

13:16
我的一个问题就是你是否看到

I'm just wondering do you see this kind of

13:21
为争取言论自由的反击

fight back to protect Free Speech now

13:24
成为一个运动并获得阶段高潮

it's a movement getting some momentum

13:29
是的 Yeah

13:33
你提到了不同大学不同组织

You talk about different organizations different universities

13:36
都开始发声了

start to you know to make their invoice

13:39
这个行动发声的组织

you know this organization starts to make their voices heard

13:45
我们跟校友言论自由联盟

the Alumni Free Speech Association which we are now

13:47
几周前成为正式成员之一

formally a member as of a couple of weeks ago

13:50
他们告之已有超过百个校园组织

They tell us that they have over 100 University groups

13:54
他们相互合作提供帮助

who they're working with to help

13:57
我们提供一些

that we provide some

14:00
免费资料欢迎他们分享传播

materials and say hey feel free to distribute these

14:03
参照我们公司的规则

to people look at our corporate bylaws

14:06
委员会结构运作规则等

look at their committee structure etcetera

14:08
从五所开始 现在

there was five now

14:12
已经15所 希望

I believe there's 15 and hopefully
14:14
到夏天会超过100所
by the summer will be over 100

14:17
不同组织在不断成立

different groups that are formed up around

14:19
都是为同一理念创立在不同学校的组织

this mission at different university

14:21
所以可以肯定地说

so yeah it's it's certainly

14:22
是个蓬勃壮大的运动

A big growth area

14:27
我想这行动也许发起有些迟了

I think response probably late in the day

14:30
相较言论自由环境的衰退

actually to the decay of free speech

14:35
尤其是美国这些领头大学的校园言论自由

on America's leading University campuses

14:38
我以前也有所察觉

I will say I'm and I was sort of aware of it

14:40
有段时间了

for a while

14:42
不过当我真的去仔细了解后

but when I've actually dug in

14:44
发现校园(言论自由)真是差

and seen how bad it's gotten on campuses today

14:47
惊人糟糕

it's shocking

14:48
我觉得真让人要惊叫了

I mean it's like Wow

14:50
坦率说我们5年前就该行动

We frankly should have done this 5 years ago

14:54
不过亡羊补牢比不做好

But better later than no at all

14:56
是的十年前开始就好了

Right, better started 10 years ago

14:58
非常令人鼓舞

that's very encouraging to see it
15:03
这个行动 不过我理解
this movement but I understand

15:06
根据我们观察这需要些勇气

from our observation it takes some courage

15:10
人们才敢反对

for people to speak up against the

15:12
就是质疑顺从型思维

conformity type of thinking

15:20
因为教育圈的人估计自己事业前途

because people in academia care about their career

15:24
企业界也类似

so do people in business but what I see now

15:26
在许多不同的领域 比如

in many many different fronts like

15:31
教育 娱乐 媒体

academia entertainment media

15:35
企业 都存在

big corporations there is a

15:38
不断增加的

kind of increasing

15:42
意识统一程度

level of conformity you know

15:46
就是希望越多人想法一样

that they want everybody to think the same

15:49
支持同一套想法

support the same set of ideas

15:51
你是否同意这个观察

do you agree this is a right observation

15:58
并且从您的角度因为你

also from your perspective because you

16:01
毕业于70年代

graduated in the 70s

16:02
另一MFSA创办者Tom

I think you and the other founder Tom

16:06
提到那个时代有很多

mentioned a little bit at that time

16:08
校园充斥不同观点但是

there was a lot of different opinions on campus but

16:10
辩论更自由 请就此谈一下

there was more free debates can you talk about this
16:13
那个现象和你的观察
kind of phenomena also what did you see

16:15
发生了什么变化？ 噢大变样

what has changed? Oho completely

16:18
1971年

1971

16:23
就是我去MIT读大学的那年

When I showed up in MIT campus

16:25
那时可是言论极为自由的

it was a riot of free speech

16:28
你什么都可以说

you can say anything, right

16:30
毫无顾忌

and anything at all

16:32
别忘了那是美国告别老式风俗的阶段

Keep in mind this was the end of traditionalism in America

16:36
你知道 就讲1969年吧

You know say 1969

16:38
那时候女的还不允许

Women were not allowed to

16:41
在大学男生宿舍过夜

spend the night at men's college dorms

16:43
到了1971年

By 1971

16:45
见鬼了 开始吸大麻喝啤酒

WTH smoking weed drinking beers

16:49
抗议越战

protesting Vietnam War

16:53
支持越战

protesting... supporting the Vietnam War

16:55
你什么都可以讲

you can say anything
16:57
那是左右中都有深刻价值观的时代
it was a very deep value of the left right center particularly

17:02
尤其是精英大学

Particularly at elite universities

17:05
主张言论自由是价值观中最重要的

freedom of speech was the most important of all values

17:09
讽刺的是1964言论自由运动发起地伯克利

ironically enough the Berkeley Free Speech movement of 1964

17:16
真正发起地

was where this really got started

17:20
加州伯克利大学

Berkeley California Berkeley University

17:22
现在成了最思想统一者之一

now one of the most conformists

17:24
美国校园言论最压制地方

speech suppressing environment in America

17:30
但是校园思想言论大解放发源地

but the idea of radical free speech on college campuses

17:34
却确实从伯克利开始

really started there and

17:36
尽管两党当时相互厌恶对方

to go from this was by all parties who hated each other right

17:42
但是那时他们都同意言论自由

but they all agreed that Free Speech

17:45
不惜代价捍卫

must be protected at all costs

17:47
当时只有共产主义者不这么想

other than the Communists

17:49
只有一小撮是共产主义者

we had a small number of Communists

17:51
他们确实反言论自由

They were absolutely about suppressing Free Speech but

17:55
但是他们才不到1% They were you know less than 1%

17:57
人人也讨厌他们 and everybody hated them

17:59
反言论自由也让他们

and the fact that they were against Free Speech made them

18:03
也没有信誉

non-credible with everybody else

18:05
无论左右都厌恶共产主义者

Left and right they all hated the communists

18:07
但是现在惊人数量的

And now we are going to point out a staggering

18:12
思想统一

confirmative

18:15
最让我注意到的

the biggest eye-opener for me so far

18:17
当下到底发生什么的时候

in my learning about what's really going on

18:20
就是MIT的老师们

is that the MIT faculty

18:23
召开了一系列会议

had a series of meetings to discuss

18:27
艾伯特事件和相关所有事

the Abbott Affair and all the things came around

18:31
包括成立MIT言论自由联盟(MFSA) that including starting MIT FSA

18:35
一个150-160人参与的匿名调查

in a confidential poll of about 150 160

18:42
参与者都是MIT老师

MIT faculty members

18:44
超过一半的人

over half 50% plus

18:48
说每天

said on an everyday basis

18:51
他们都要

They felt like their ability to express themselves

18:54
谨言慎行

frankly and clear uninhibitedly was being suppressed

18:59
一半 在MIT这样

50% at MIT

19:01
真够惊人

that's staggering

19:03
当问及他们在当下社会环境

Then when they were asked in the current broader social environment

19:08
你觉得自己和同行受到多大程度的

what degree do believe yours and your colleagues ability

19:12
自由言论侵害

speak freely is under assault

19:15
结果答案几乎是80%

the number was almost 80%

19:18
这竟是MIT 一个本是智力尖子的地方

and this is at MIT the place of intellectual rigors, right

19:23
我本觉得

where I would have thought

19:24
该是坚守到最后的阵地

would have been the last place to fall for the stuff

19:27
但是就是这种证据

but here we are testimony under

19:30
匿名民调

private confidential vote

19:32
50%觉得每天被压制

50% feel they're being suppressed everyday

19:35
80%觉得整个社会环境

and 80% feel that the environment is generally

19:38
让人觉得受威胁和压制

threatening and suppressive

19:40
无法诚实完整地表达自己的想法

are people honestly and fully expressing themselves

19:44
这是惊人的

That's staggering
19:46
这让人好吃惊
It‘s surprised to me

19:53
因为MIT是STEM领域大牛校

Because MIT is very strong at STEM field

19:55
STEM人才是依靠

For STEM talents you are

19:58
事实数据说话的

based on facts and numbers, data

20:01
不是靠讲故事

not based on stories

20:03
如果我们的STEM精英大学

If our STEM elite universities

20:07
都被这么强的审核困扰

are been trapping in strong censorship

20:12
甚至是自我审核

even self censorship

20:13
那真是这个国家未来的大问题

That could be a huge problem in future of this country

20:17
世界末日

End of the world I mean

20:20
科学的首要

the essence of science

20:23
就是开放和强烈的质疑

is open and rigorous inquiry

20:25
是吧 我们做实验获取数据

right we go we do experiments we gather data

20:30
我们相互科学辩论

we argue with each other

20:31
你很少看到像两物理学家那样的争论

you never seen arguments quite like two physicists

20:34
他们争执不停

having an argument they go at each other right

20:37
他们互相挑战

they challenged each other

20:38
如果一些想法变成神圣就无法被挑战

but if some ideas become holy they can't be challenged

20:43
或者一些权威

or some authorities

20:46
一定要被引用因为

must be quoted because they

20:49
他们与某些政治派别

They aligned with some political factions

20:52
或者某些少数族裔一致

or some ethic minorities or something

20:55
那即使不是学术完全死亡

That’ll be if not quite the death

20:58
也是对科学的严重冲击

the very substantial damage to science

21:02
这将阻碍全人类

and that will hold back all of humanity

21:05
肯定会严重影响一些国家

It'll certainly hurt those countries

21:08
他们受影响最多

where they're most infected

21:10
科学是全球科研工作者的礼物

science is a gift of workers to the world, right

21:13
你创造科学事实和价值

you create scientific facts and value

21:16
世界上每个人都可以很快受益

everyone in the world can soon take advantage of that

21:20
如果你让小圈子改变科学

so agree that your sub optimizing science

21:22
等于欺骗人类前进的能力

you're cheating the human race out of its ability to move forward

21:26

这是非常非常糟糕的事

this is very very bad stuff

21:28
是的非常同意

Yeah I agree

21:30
特别感觉到当今的学生更少地

Especially we feel nowadays students are less

21:33
对辩论各方持开放心态

open to debates of all sides

21:36
觉得他们不少恐怕已被灌输

We feel they have probably already being fed up

21:40
就是被称为的洗脑

as so-called brainwashed

21:42
你觉得有改变学生的良药吗

Do you think there is any remedy to rescue those students?

21:47
让他们变回更支持言论自由

To make them back to support more free speech

21:50
绝对的 你说得对

Yup absolutely you are right

21:53
恐怕被影响最厉害的

probably the ones that been beaten down the most

21:57
就是学生了

are the students, right

21:59
虽然我们没具体相关统计

We don't have the data yet for

22:01
不过FIRE组织做了一些校园调查

FIRE is done some surveys on campus come up

22:04
结果惊人 在60-70%的区间

with staggering numbers in the 60 and 70% range

22:07
我们正在尝试在MIT进行一项研究

We're trying to commission a study on MIT campus

22:11
了解下学生的情况

see what the students are

22:13
有意思的是我们发现

interestingly what we can tell

22:17
学生的主要问题不是明着来审核

the real problem for students isn't so much active censorship

22:21
而是自我主动审核

It is self-censorship

22:23
一个我们在做的事情

and one of things we've now

22:27
就是发现竟然有很多自我审核

work on this and realize how much self-censorship

22:32
这是学生面对的最重要问题

most important issue picked for students

22:35
我们将提出一系列关于

we're going to be coming out with a whole series of

22:38
关于打破自我审查壁橱

ideas about the idea that break out of the self-censorship closet

22:43
对人类 对你自己负责

you know you owe it to humanity you owe it to yourself

22:46
我们实际上认为本科生

we actually think that the number of even undergraduates

22:51
完全接受审查

who fully are bought into this idea of censorship

22:54
和破坏观点多样性

and destroying viewpoint diversity

22:57
应该不到一半

is still less than half of

23:00
大多数人可能仍然反对

the majority are probably still oppose

23:02
不过他们被恐吓了如果能发声

But they just intimidated and if they will speak up

23:04
并获得其他人支持

and have other people will support them

23:06
我们认为有机会出现

we think there's a chance for them to be a

23:09
讲实话的潮流就会风起云涌

groundswell of fact

23:12
比如人们说我们要这些混蛋付出代价

what people say "we are not free to those A-hole

23:15
不能在推特上作威作福 对吧

on twitter say", right

23:17
我们有自己的观点

We have our views and

23:19
美国人我们有言论自由的权利

we are Americans we have the right to say it

23:21
我们有一些盟友会来帮助我们

We have some allies will come to our aid

23:25
也有人试图攻击我们

some people try to beat up on us

23:28
这是我们所看到的未来一大趋势

that's broad streak of what we‘ve seen going forward

23:34
我们已经有些在校学生

we already have some interest from some students

23:37
开始在校园发起相关组织

starting an on-campus organization

23:39
非常希望将大幅增加学生人数

Very hopeful that we will increase our number of students

23:43
尤其在未来六个月内

substantially in the coming six months

23:45
会有行动帮助那些

there‘ll be activities on campus to allow people

23:49
支持言论自由的聚到一起

who believe in free speech to come together

23:50
说他们想说

say what they want to say

23:52
并没有顾忌

and get away with it

23:54
我们还计划组织校园

we also are looking to arrange some on-campus

23:59
就争议话题展开辩论

debates on controversial issues

24:01
一些是围绕左右立场的

Some of them will be in the normal right left axis

24:07
一些则就其他方向的话题 some made in other axis

24:09
树立这样一种观念非常重要

We think it's very important to model the idea

24:12
即所有说话真诚

that all speakers who were speaking in good faith

24:15
使用良好论据

are using good argumentation

24:20
合乎逻辑的演讲者都有权

and speaking logically have the right to

24:22
make their case on campus

在校园里提出自己的观点

24:24
如果你不同意某人

If you disagree with somebody

24:26
伙计们那就反驳他们

disprove them my friends

24:28
而不是不让他们说话

don't say they cannot speak

24:30
我们的另一个项目

so that's another one of our projects

24:33
处于计划阶段

that's in the planning stages

24:36
安排和获得财务支持

is to schedule and support finance

24:39
校园的争议话题辩论

some controversial debates on campus
25:25
你知道如果某些事情不能进行辩论

you know if something cannot be debated

25:29
国家可以往很糟糕方向发展

the country can go into very bad direction

25:33
我现在的理论是

I think my theory now is

25:37
美国很多年轻人没经历过

in this country many young people they haven't experienced

25:41
他们没真吃过压制的苦头

much hardship they haven't been really suppressed by anything

25:47
但他们有点像……说得不好听点

but they kind of like... To me use a harsh word

25:50
空虚 他们试图

a little bit 'empty' you know they try to

25:52
坚持他们觉得高尚的东西

hold on to something they think really noble

25:54
他们觉得一些说法比另一些优等

To they some speech is better than others

25:58
于是他们想

They think they want to, you know

26:01
镇压“坏的”言论

suppress the bad speech

26:04
但我不认为他们真有智慧

but I don't think they really have the wisdom

26:08
裁决对错

to judge what is good what is bad

26:10
什么是好的需要由

what is good has to be decided by

26:13
由激烈辩论来决定

as you said through vigorous debate

26:14
要倾听所有立场方

to hear all the sides

26:16
现在我觉得问题是

right now I feel the problem is

26:19
有些人有言论自由但不是

there is free speech for some people but not for

26:22
有某些观点的其他人

others if you have certain point of views

26:25
这真的是个问题

That's really a problem

26:28
是的 我认为是你说的那样

Yeah I do think that some of this is that you say

26:32
美国我们有言论自由

We've had free speech in America since

26:34
1971年是肯定言论自由了

since 1971 for sure but

26:39
至少在 1964 年开始起

at least starting to roll by 1964

26:41
在那之前我们有名义上的言论自由

We had nominal Free Speech before that

26:44
但是有很多非正式的审查

but there was a lot of informal censorship going on

26:46
在不同方面上进行

in different directions, right

26:49
不过过去50年里

But for last 50 years

26:51
我们越拥有真的言论自由

and more we've had true free speech

26:53
不幸的是很多人

and so unfortunately a lot of folks

26:56
不明白这多稀有和宝贵

don't understand how rare and valuable that is

26:59
尤其从历史角度

in the history of the world

27:00
在人类历史上没有多少次

there haven't been very many times in human history

27:04
你可以真实说出你的想法

were you could literally say what you thought

27:06
而不担心得罪国王或者教会

you didn't worry about offending a king or a church

27:11
一个地主或一个军阀

or a landlord or a warlord

27:15
看一下人类历史完全

We look at human history completely covered with

27:19
被各种权力所笼罩

various authorities of different sorts

27:22
各种试图要求一致性

that are trying to demand conformity

27:23
统一思想 出现这种泡沫

in thinking and this bubble

27:27
过去50或60年来在西方出现的

we've had in the West for the last fifty or sixty years

27:29
在人类历史上是非常不寻常的

is remarkably unusual in human history

27:34
非常有价值

remarkably valuable

27:36
不巧是人们不记得历史

Unfortunate people don't remember the the previous period

27:40
或者没有真正经历过

or don't have experience with

27:43
我与人交谈发现数量惊人的

Talk to so many people I found an amazing number particularly

27:46
尤其是来自CN、古巴、委内瑞拉

people fromCN Cuba or Venezuela

27:50
波兰或俄罗斯的 or

Poland or Russia

27:52
who actually experienced totalitarianism

27:55
他们是言论自由的坚定支持者

They are stronger supporters of free speech

27:59
比任何现在美国人都懂 因为他们知道

than any current American coz they know

28:02
没有言论自由是什么感觉

what is like to not have free speech
28:26
觉得美国孩子们
I think America's kids

28:29
需要明白真正集权主义

need to understand that the real authoritarianism

28:32
比他们想象的可怕多了

is much stronger than what they thought

28:34
他们中一些把稻草人当敌人

Some of them just use a strawman as enemy

28:39
他们没有跟真独裁势力交手经验

They do not have experiences with a real strong enemy

28:43
如果我们说多了话

Any if we say something too much

28:47
可能会危及自己和在中国家人的安全

It could danger our own safety and our family in China

28:51
这是非常不同的情况

That's very different situation

28:55
我只希望那些理想化的孩子能理解

I just hope those very ideological kids can understand that

28:58
然后他们会珍惜美国

Then they will appreciate America

29:00
言论自由对这个国家是珍贵礼物

how freedom of speech is such a gift to the country

29:04
这就是为什么我喜欢跟移民交流

That's why I love reaching out to immigrants

29:08
进入美国是这项工作的一部分

enter the United States as part of this work

29:10
因为他们可以从真实经历中证明

cause they can testify from real experience

29:13
土生美国人反而不能

that us Americans really can't

29:16
我们有理论想法

we have our theories we have our ideas

29:18
但是你们真感受过压到脸上的靴子

but y'all actually felt the boot on your face
29:21
你们切实感受到不同
you can speak to just how different it is

29:25
住在一个不能随便说话的地方

to live in a place where you can't speak

29:28
你们在中国有家人

even though as you said you have family in China

29:30
他们仍然可以以此限制你们

They still string upon you

29:31
但依然不同

but not in the same way that

29:40
是的 在失去前珍惜你的权利

Yeah cherish your right before you lose it

29:43
希望不要失去

Hope don't loss it

29:46
另外我提到的事情是

The other thing as I mention

29:49
70年代信共产主义的是很少的

there are a fewer communists back there in 1970s

29:51
现在多多了

there are more now

29:53
他们存在于高校

They are imbedded in the universities

29:55
可能3-5%的美国人

Probably 3-5% Americans may

30:01
青睐马克思主义

look favorably upon Marxism

30:05
而在美国人文系

In American humanity department

30:08
可能一半都是马克思主义者

it may be half

30:10
在精英大学的英语系

In the English Dept at elite universities

30:12
估计有50%的自称马克思主义者

maybe 50% of people call themselves Marxists

30:15
他们笑称这些是休闲椅罢工马克思主义者

what do they call the lounge chair Marxist strike

30:20
他们是那些读书 they are the ones who read the books

30:23
读报自称马克思主义的人

read the journals and pronounce them Marxism

30:25
不过他们是在自由国家 But they are in a free country

30:28
如果他们实际在一个马克思主义国家

if they were actually in a Marxist country

30:30
他们可能是首先被关集中营的

they may be the first ones to be thrown in the camps

30:33
但不巧的是确实有大量马克思主义意识形态

but there is unfortunately a significant amount of Marxist ideology

30:40
是部分压制言论自由的背后成因

behind some of the suppression of free speech

30:44
像70年代只是一小部分人

just as in 1970 the small percentage of
30:46
马克思主义者想压制言论自由
who wanted suppress Free Speech were mostly Marxists

30:50
今天绝不是全部

by no means all today

30:52
我不是想说美国所有

so I'm not trying to say that all people who

30:54
反言论自由的

oppose to free speech in America

30:56
都是马克思主义者

are Marxists

30:57
但是很多意识形态上的支持

but many of the ideological support
31:01
这个范围的事尤其是所谓的警醒领域
for things in this area particularly the so-called woke area

31:05
完全来自法兰克福学派

comes from the Frankfurt School

31:08
这本质上是德国版马克思主义

which is essentially a German form of Marxism

31:13
它及其衍生理论

that is and in its descendants

31:16
有很强的痕迹

have significant footprint

31:18
尤其对人文和社会科学

Particularly in humanities and social science departments

31:21
美国高校这些相关院系

in the US higher education

31:24
是的 这些人文学科院系

Yeah those you know humanity departments

31:31
在我看来他们就像一个说法“进步主义”

they are in my opinion like we say use the term "progressive"

31:36
我们被要求学马克思主义

we have to learn Marxism

31:40
当我在中国上中学时候
in China when I was in middle school
(字幕翻译未完待续)
有条件上的请去支持一下陌上YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/c/MOSHANGUSA
支持我们的墙外平台就是支持为free speech奋斗的一群在美华人志愿者，“陌上美国”油管：
youtube.com/c/MOSHANGUSA
youtube.com/c/MOSHANGUSA
被封半年中的主号👇
前文导读
《《傲慢与偏见》没人能阻挡你拥有清澈干净有趣的灵魂》
《曾经言论自由胜地，美国高校如何变成思想统一发动机，怎么改变现状？》
《小德已被迫离开澳洲，因疫情政策躺枪的澳网事件始末》
《美国没有因收养中国残疾孩子而被亲友冷眼绝交的事》
《傲慢与偏见-帮冷峻酷男尤其亚裔学表白》
《美国的学术江湖》
《王力宏李靓蕾婚变敲响了精英教育的警钟》
继续阅读
阅读原文