祖克曼演绎中提琴
A Conversation With Violinst Pinchas Zukerman
对话祖克曼（一）
谷宇飞专访祖克曼
By Lenny Cavallaro
Methuen, MA, USA
The story of Pinchas Zukerman reads almost like a fairy-tale – a young child in Israel begins to study the violin, gets "discovered" by Isaac Stern and Pablo Casals a few years later, and moves to the United States to study under the great pedagogue, Ivan Galamian. He gives his New York debut the following year; by age 18, he wins the prestigious Leventritt Competition, and a star is born. Only there is considerably more. 
祖克曼的人生故事读起来犹如童话：一个以色列男孩自幼学习小提琴，几年后他被艾萨克·斯特恩和帕布罗·卡萨尔斯“发掘”，之后去往美国，在伟大的教育家伊凡·加拉米安的指导下学习。次年，他便于纽约首演；18岁时，祖克曼在远近闻名的列文垂特大赛中摘桂，一颗明星就此诞世。而这却远不是这个童话故事的尾声。
祖克曼即将开展中国巡演

Pinchas Zukerman is also an internationally renowned violist. Moreover, in his early 20's, he succumbed to the "conducting bug," beginning with the English Chamber Orchestra. He later became music director of the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra (1980-87), enjoyed stints in various capacities at Dallas and Baltimore, and became music director of Canada's National Arts Centre Orchestra (NACO) in 1999, in which capacity he still serves. In addition, he has been the principal guest conductor of the Royal Philharmonic since 2009.
作为中提琴演奏家的祖克曼同样名满天下。不仅如此，在二十出头的年岁，他又化身“指挥家兔八哥”（"conducting bug"），以英国室内乐团（English Chamber Orchestra）为起点。其后，他成为了圣保罗室内交响乐团（St. Paul Chamber Orchestra）的音乐总监（1980-87年间），在达拉斯和巴尔的摩五花八门的职位上享受着他的任期，1999年祖克曼成为了加拿大国家艺术中心交响乐团（NACO）的音乐总监，这份职务他历任至今。除此外，自2009年起他还作为首席客座指挥执棒英国皇家爱乐乐团。（译注：祖克曼已于2015年卸任NACO音乐总监，但出任名誉指挥。 ）
祖克曼指挥NACO

Why stop there? Like most musicians, Zukerman believes in the importance of chamber music, and he formed the Zukerman ChamberPlayers in 2003. He also teaches at the Manhattan School of Music.
指挥家的生涯再次画上句点，原因何在？和大多数音乐家一样，祖克曼对室内乐的重要性深信不疑，于是他在2003年成立了祖克曼室内乐演奏家（Zukerman ChamberPlayers）乐团。在曼哈顿音乐学院你也能找到他传道授业的身影。
Zukerman Chamber Players  2013年 曾来过北京

Our paths had actually crossed some years ago. I reviewed Pinchas Zukerman twice during my stint as critic for The New Haven Register. Although the texts are "lost" – these were pre-Internet days! – I am certain I littered my prose with superlatives both times. Thus, it was with nothing but fond memories and the highest artistic respect that I began our conversation.
多年前，我俩曾有过交集。当我还在为《纽黑文记事报》撰写乐评时，我曾两次评论过皮恩卡斯·祖克曼。尽管那些文章已经“丢了”——那可是没有互联网的年代！——我很确信自己两次都把写满溢美之词的文章乱扔弄没了。也因此，前事皆作古，我仅带着美好的回忆以及对艺术最崇高的敬意，开始了我们的对谈。

THIRSTY: You've enjoyed success on the viola, which is somewhat unusual for a violinist of your stature. What is it like switching between the two instruments, which are similar, to be sure, but different with respect to fingerboard technique and even more so with respect to bowing? Do you encourage conservatory-level students to perform on more than one instrument, or is that something that can work to their detriment developmentally? Also, precisely when did you get involved with the viola? 
THIRSTY:你在中提琴事业上收获的成功，在如此修为的小提琴演奏家里并不多见。两种乐器间存在相似之处无疑，但就指板技术而言，仍有不同，这种差异性在弓法上体现的更为显著，那么在二者间切换是什么样的体验呢？你会鼓励音乐学院的学生演奏不止一种乐器吗？还是说，从演奏技艺发展的角度看，这于他们有害？还有，你究竟是何时开始涉足中提琴的呢？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: To answer the earlier question, I strongly encourage violinists to play the viola, and violists to play the violin! In fact, we've switched a few fiddle players to viola during the course of study, and they're doing extremely well. Schmuel Katz is one who comes to mind right away. He is principal viola at the Mostly Mozart Festival, and he also plays with the Philadelphia and Metropolitan Opera orchestras. Also, Tali Kravitz, who has gone back to Israel, used to be a violinist exclusively, but she switched to viola and now teaches that instrument as well. 

祖克曼：回答你之前的问题，我强烈建议小提琴手去演奏中提琴，中提琴手去演奏小提琴！事实上，在课业中我们曾让几位小提琴手转而演奏中提琴，而他们做的非常棒。我脑中闪过的第一个人就是叔默尔·卡茨。他是莫扎特音乐节上的中提琴首席，他也任职于费城歌剧院以及大都会歌剧院的交响乐团。还有塔里·克拉维茨，她已经回以色列了，原来只演奏小提琴，但如今她转而演奏中提琴并教授这门乐器。
To address the larger picture, though, I think it's a very important concept to keep in mind. If we notice someone struggling on the a little too much, that student may benefit from a switch to the viola. Remarkably enough, the violin may become easier later on if the student switches back – as they sometimes do. However, we may also encounter a similar problem the other way. Sometimes, when they're struggling on the viola, the problem involves coordination on the larger frame. The violin is smaller, and provides an opportunity to move around more rapidly and easily. After a while, if they return to the viola, they find they are better able to handle the same technical challenges. It's a little like driving a big car and/or a small car. The differences arise not so much on the straight road as when one takes the curves. 
不过，着眼于更大的图景，我认为这是一个值得采纳的重要理念。如果我们注意到有学生在小提琴上过于纠结，那么他或许可以得益于中提琴的训练。令人印象深刻的是，当学生重新回归小提琴以后，他会发现原来的问题变简单了——这时有发生。然而，在中提琴上，我们也会碰到相似的问题。有时，中提琴演奏者会纠结如何与更大尺寸的琴身相协调。小提琴更小巧，小巧的琴身为乐手提供了更迅速、更轻松的“跑动”环境。一段时间的练习以后，当他们回归中提琴时，便会发现原来的技术难点如今可以更好的掌控了。这有点类似开大型车与开小型车的差别。这种差别在笔直的大路上表现的远没有在曲折的弯道上明显。
As far as the music goes, I feel there is no question whatsoever: everyone who plays the violin should also play the viola, and vice versa, because it's wonderful to be on both sides of the score, so to speak. It's certainly valuable to learn the alto clef as well, not only in theory, but also in practice. Pianists are taught to play two clefs immediately, so why shouldn't violinists learn a second clef, also? 
就音乐而言，我觉得这毫无问题：每一个小提琴乐手都应该学习演奏中提琴，反之亦然，因为，可以这么说，能在谱表两端都有所作为是很棒的一件事。同样，学习中音谱表的价值也是毋庸置疑的，不仅在理论上，在演奏中也是如此。钢琴家们习琴从来是即刻识出上下两行乐谱，既然如此，为什么小提琴家就不该多学一行呢？
I started playing the viola when I was 15, at Meadowmount [the Meadowmount School of Music, which hosts a prestigious summer program for talented string players and pianists – Ed.]. Josef Gingold encouraged me to try the instrument, and the rest was history. 
我于15岁起在梅多蒙特学习中提琴（指梅多蒙特音乐学院，该院设有一闻名的夏季项目，专为有天赋的钢琴家和小提琴家开设）。约瑟夫·吉格德鼓励我尝试这门乐器，再之后就都是往事了。
Josef Gingold and Joshua Bell

Actually, a number of violinists performed on the viola as well. David Oistrakh was a fabulous violist, and I heard him on that instrument on numerous occasions, including once at Carnegie Hall, when he and his son, Igor, performed Mozart's Symphonie Concertante magnificently. Later, I got to hear Yehudi Menuhin play the same work, and while I never heard either of them program sonatas and concertos, I suspect they might have at some point. 
实际上，不少小提琴家都会演奏中提琴。大卫·奥伊斯特拉赫就是一位杰出的中提琴演奏家，我在不少场合都听过他的演奏，包括一次在卡内基音乐厅，他和他的儿子——伊戈尔——将莫扎特的交响协奏曲合作的恢弘壮丽。这之后，我也听耶胡迪·梅纽因演奏过同一部作品，虽然我从没听过他俩在音乐会里安排奏鸣曲和协奏曲，不过我猜这对他们而言只是时间问题。
奥伊斯特拉赫父子与梅纽因

For quite a while, I played both instruments for repertoire purposes as well as my personal interest, notably with an all-Brahms sequence. For two or three seasons, [pianist] Marc Niekrug and I played two all-Brahms recitals – all the sonatas for both violin and viola – over the course of two nights. 
在很长一段时间内，我演奏乐器既为充实曲目也为我的个人喜好，尤其是勃拉姆斯的全部作品。出于三两个由头，（钢琴家）马克·尼克鲁格与我合作了两场全勃拉姆斯音乐会——演奏所有的小提琴和中提琴奏鸣曲——音乐会办了两夜。

By the way, we also performed the ten Beethoven violin sonatas in three nights. However, while it easy enough to program all-French music or all-German music, there aren't that many composers with whom we can fill the programs exclusively. One might also try it with Mozart, Schumann, and Bartok . . .
随口一提，我们曾花三晚演奏了贝多芬的十部小提琴奏鸣曲。尽管，编排全法国曲目或是全德国曲目的音乐会绝非难事，但若要安排单一作曲家的作品音乐会的话，我们并没有那么多作曲家可供选择。或许可以试一试莫扎特，舒曼和巴托克. . .

THIRSTY: Perhaps Hindemith!
THIRSTY:也可以是亨德密特！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN:But you see, there really aren't that many. Yet in a way, the usual "balanced" programs are sometimes more difficult on the listener. When they go from Mozart to Respighi . . . well, let's just say I might not be all that keen on trying that, especially these days, given the level of music appreciation we sometimes encounter in the concert halls. 
祖克曼：但是你看，真的没有那么多可选。在某种程度上，一般意义上“平衡”（多元）的曲目安排有时对听众而言反而更有难度。当他们从莫扎特跳到雷斯庇基时. . . 好吧，我想说的只是我并不热衷于那种尝试，特别是如今，考虑到我们有时会在音乐厅里碰到的那种（糟糕的）欣赏水平的时候。

THIRSTY: Programming is an art in and of itself!
THIRSTY:曲目安排本身也是一门艺术！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: That's true, but in the old days, things were different. I remember I heard Menuhin once – in the first half, he played twelve of the Paganini Caprices, which were fantastic, and then in the second half, he did the Bach Sonata in d minor [which ends in the very famous Chaconne – ed.]. This was a terrific program in my opinion. I think of it as a painter's palette – after twelve pictures, we should have a pretty good idea about his palette! We can really learn about Paganini's craft over the course of twelve compositions, and the same is true of Bach from such a monumental sonata, so that's good programming. When one plays all-classical in one half and all-virtuosic in the other, that is also good programming, because the listener gains a greater understanding of both the instrument and the performer. 
祖克曼：确实如此，但是放在过去，事情是不一样的。我记得我曾听过一次梅纽因的音乐会——在上半场，他演奏了帕格尼尼（二十四首）随想曲中的十二首，都很棒；在下半场，他演奏了巴赫的《d小调奏鸣曲》（结束在那段著名的恰空里）。在我看来这便是一例优秀的曲目安排。我把它想象成画家的调色盘，12幅画过后，我们理应对他的成色知根知底！在12首随想曲中，我们确实可以真切的学习帕格尼尼的匠心，对巴赫亦然，在如此不朽的奏鸣曲中，因此，这种曲目安排是优秀的。当演奏家选择演奏半场全古典作品，半场全炫技作品时，却也不失为优秀的编排，因为这样安排曲目可以让听众从乐器与乐手两个方面都获得更好的理解。
Tying this back to your question, though, I think it's another reason for violinists to study the viola (and vice versa). I was able to do an all-Schubert program, also, in which I played the "Arpeggione" Sonata [actually written for an obscure, now "extinct" instrument, the arpeggione, but most often performed on either cello or viola (though sometimes on bass, clarinet, guitar, or other instruments) – ed.], and on those evenings, we gave the listener a better understanding of the "journey" of Schubert, just as we did for the "journey" of Brahms. 
绕回你的问题，我认为让小提琴手学习中提琴（反之亦然）的理由还有一条。同时掌握两种乐器可以让我有能力安排全舒伯特曲目的音乐会，在这类音乐会中我会演奏（舒伯特的）《阿佩乔尼琴奏鸣曲》[本是写给一种小众的，现已“消失”的乐器，阿佩乔尼琴的，这首作品时常由大提琴或是中提琴演奏（尽管有时也会在低音提琴，单簧管，吉他和其他乐器上演奏）]，在那些夜晚，我们可以给予听众更好的理解，理解舒伯特的“旅程”，正如我们为勃拉姆斯的“旅程”所做的一样。

THIRSTY: That's quite interesting! Sarah Darling, who recorded my violin sonata, is actually a violist. My composition is in the baroque style, and she is a violist who got moved over to baroque violin. It was quite enjoyable to work with her, and I can certainly appreciate everything you've said about playing both instruments. There was a time when this was discouraged, but I'm glad to see the pendulum has swung the other way. 
THIRSTY:这很有趣！萨拉·达林，录制了我的小提琴奏鸣曲，实际上她是一位中提琴演奏家。我的作品是巴洛克风格的，她是一名转攻巴洛克小提琴的原中提琴手。和她一起工作非常享受，而我无疑赞同你关于学习两种乐器的全部观点。曾有一段时间，器乐双修是不被提倡的，但我幸得见到钟摆不再是一边倒了。
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: I knew some great violists who started on the fiddle. Walter Trampler performed exclusively on the viola, but he told me that once a month or so, he would practice several hours on the violin, just to rekindle the small motor coordinations. I think this is good, and encourage people to play both. 
祖克曼：我认识一些伟大的中提琴演奏家，而他们是从小提琴开始的。瓦尔特·特拉普勒只演奏中提琴，但他曾告诉我，一个月左右，他总会练几个小时的小提琴，只是为了重新激活自己的精细运动协调能力。我认为这是值得称道的，也能鼓励人们同时学习演奏两种乐器。 （未完待续，明日继续更新）
音乐编译组公众号往期推送：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。”
20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？28、卡萨尔斯论演奏丨“我们必须学会不要每个音符都完全照搬谱子上写的拉。” 29、钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？30、席夫访谈丨“我们必须努力向公众解释如何聆听美妙的音乐。” 31、托斯卡尼尼与川普丨作为权力工具的古典音乐；32、论托斯卡尼尼丨热爱自由并勇于行动；33、布伦德尔谈周善祥丨“你可以雇一个登山向导来教一个小孩儿怎么走路。” 34、指挥家圣克莱尔论布鲁克纳《第八交响曲》丨“他并不浪漫，你在他的音乐中并不能得到像柴科夫斯基或者马勒交响曲中所得到的感受。” 35、“音乐绝对不是知识”丨钢琴家白建宇访谈；36、鲁宾斯坦访谈丨“我告诉家人，如果我坚持钢琴事业太久就开枪打死我。” 37、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（上）丨“在我演奏时，我不是在听大提琴的声音，而是在听一个管弦乐团。” 38、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（下）丨“我从50年代开始指挥，这大大拓宽了我塑造音乐的视野。” 39、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“柏林墙倒塌以来，世界一直处于缺乏领导的困境中。” 40、郑京和的回归丨“当我在舞台上时，上帝与我同在！”
41、巴伦博伊姆遇见阿格里奇丨“当音乐家们沉浸在自己的音乐世界中时，他们的表情传递出自然和精神力量。” 42、爸爸巴赫到底有多少小崽子？ 43、我问郑京和，经历了这么多事情，重新站上舞台是什么感觉？44、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 45、他差点成为“古尔德”丨阿劳与巴赫的故事；46、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 47、他是钢琴家，却说自己“的目标是尽量少练习”丨迪巴格访谈；48、“我们要从象牙塔中取出音乐”丨巴伦博伊姆访谈；49、“我不想听伊莎贝拉·福斯特以外任何人演奏的协奏曲。” 50、“我不是唯一戴眼镜的钢琴家”丨迪巴格访谈；51、休伊特访谈丨“你花时间学习巴赫，他必然回报你很多”；52、休伊特访谈丨“要成为优秀的巴赫演奏者，也一定是一位学者。” 53、对话休伊特丨“每只手的每一根手指都可以通过巴赫的音乐的训练而变得有力。” 54、对话休伊特丨“我很幸运，通过做一些能给我和很多人带来乐趣的事情谋生。” 55、男高音阿兰尼亚专访（上）丨“我正在寻求的声音极其简单。” 56、一位世界级男高音的互联网思维丨阿兰尼亚专访（下）；57、钢琴家波利尼丨“我永远不选音乐之外的另一种生活！”；58、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“我相信有很多以色列人梦想有一天醒来，发现巴勒斯坦人不见了。” 59、钢琴家马加洛夫回忆他第一次听到李帕蒂演奏；60、乔治乌访谈丨“在我之前歌剧演唱家不需要美貌。” 61、内田光子论莫扎特丨“没有什么比音乐家的生活更美好。” 62、捷杰耶夫访谈丨他要把古典音乐传播到世界各地，哪怕是最不可能的地方丨捷杰耶夫访谈；63、谷宇飞专访祖克曼丨“你必须与坐在音乐厅最后一排的观众积极传达你所演奏或指挥的曲目的意义。”
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