钢琴家休伊特《在现代钢琴上演奏巴赫》（一）
Taking Time With Bach
巴赫：一生相伴
作者：阿兰·拉斯布里杰（Alan Rusbridger ）
Angela Hewitt is one of the foremost living interpreters of Bach. Her world tour brings her to London's Wigmore Hall next week. She talks to Alan Rusbridger about the joy and difficulty of playing Bach.
安吉拉·休伊特是当今最顶尖的巴赫诠释者之一。下周，作为其世界巡演的一环，休伊特将在威格莫尔大厅献演。她向阿兰·拉斯布里杰谈起了演奏巴赫的酸甜苦辣。
钢琴大师安吉拉·休伊特

Alan Rusbridger: Some pianists would think, "It's enough for me to play this, without having to explain." Do you have an instinct as a teacher?
阿兰·拉斯布里杰（以下简称“拉”）：有些钢琴家会想：“这个我不要再弹了，无需解释”。你是否有当教师的天性？
Angela Hewitt: I do, although I don't teach regularly. I refuse all private lessons, simply as a matter of time. I hardly have time to do my own work. But yes, I think I've always liked to put words to music, whether it's writing about the pieces as I do in my notes, or giving pre-concert talks, or explaining in the masterclass why I take such-and-such a decision for interpretation. I did have some excellent teachers who gave me that. I think that if you are an interpreter and also can explain what you are doing, it helps people an awful lot. You can get a lot from just listening to someone but to have them explain to you "Why?", that is another thing entirely.
安吉拉·休伊特（以下简称“休”）：有的，虽然教课不是我的常规。出于时间的考虑，我拒绝所有的私课。我自己的事都做不完。但确实，我想我总是很愿意谈论音乐，无论是有关音乐作品的我的个人笔记，音乐会之前的导赏，还是在大师班上解释我为什么决定这样或那样去演绎作品。我有些很棒的老师也这样给予过我。我觉得，如果你作为一位诠释者，能够去解释你所做的，那真是让大众受益颇多。你当然可以光靠听别人演奏就学到很多，但是让他们向你解释背后的奥秘，那又是一件全新的事情。

AR: Has being forced to articulate what you are doing taken you to a different level in your playing?
拉：被要求解释自己所做的，这种经历是否曾帮助你提升自己的演奏境界？
AH: I think so. Having to really explain rhythmic alterations in Baroque music - why you double dot, where you double dot, and not just because you feel like it, but to have the reasons for it. To really have a think about keys in Bach and what keys express a certain feeling and if there are indeed keys that seem to express certain emotions for Bach, which I think there are. It made me think about things more consciously. That has helped my interpretation, for sure. I think the two work together – the vast knowledge I gain by the performing, and also the thinking about it and the wanting to articulate it.
休：我想是的。比如和别人好好解释一下巴洛克音乐里的节奏替换：为什么弹成双附点，什么时候这么做？不能只是由着性子来，而是需要有道理。又比如，认真想想巴赫音乐的调性，特定的调性表达特定的感受，对于巴赫来说，是不是有这种情况？我想是有的。这让我更有意识地去思考，这肯定有助于我的诠释。通过演奏来掌握大量的知识，同时对这些知识进行思考并热切地表达出来，这两件事情我是一起考虑的。
AR: Where have you learnt from, if there are so few written sources?
拉：如果说文字资料很匮乏，你是从哪儿学习的？
AH: A combination. I admire the people who go into all the libraries and gather up all the original information. I haven't done that, I must say, although I try to keep abreast of all the recent biographies – the Christoph Wolf biography of Bach and all the new publications, certainly. Basically it comes from the experience with his music, combined with reading. For instance, I'm always saying that I was glad that when I did the recordings, that I did the partitas and the French suites first before I got into the fugues. I learnt so much about the dances in Bach. There are so many pieces in the Well-Tempered Clavier that are dances, but you have to recognise them and then you have to know what to do with them. So that was a help… I learnt from books, from experience, not so much from pianists, I must say. I listened to harpsichordists, to orchestras, to people like John Eliot Gardiner and the early music crowd.
休：是一种综合。我很佩服那些去图书馆里搜集大量原始信息的人。老实说，我没这么干过，虽然我会尽力不落下近期的传记，比如沃尔夫（Christoph Wolf）撰写的巴赫传记，当然还有其它各种新的出版物。基本来说，我靠的是有关他音乐的经验，再结合一些阅读。比如，我总是说我很高兴在录音的时候先录了帕蒂塔和法国组曲，之后才是赋格。有关巴赫的舞曲，我学了很多。《十二平均律》里有特别多的曲目都是舞曲，但你得辨认出来，然后得知道该怎么处理。所以说，这确实帮了忙。（译者注：和《十二平均律》里不“明说”的舞曲元素不同，巴赫的帕蒂塔和法国组曲大都遵循巴洛克时期的古组曲形式，其基础是“阿勒曼德-库朗特-萨拉班德-吉格”这互成对比的四种舞曲，此外还可能添加“幻想曲”，“前奏曲”和“咏叹调”等乐章，以及“小步舞曲”、“加沃特”、“波兰舞曲”等等其它舞曲。）我从书里学习，从经验里学习，但我得说，我没从钢琴家们那儿学到太多。我听羽管键琴，听管弦乐队，听约翰·艾略特·加德纳等等，还有周围的早期音乐。
AR: Why harpsichordists?
拉：为什么是羽管键琴演奏家？
AH: Pianists often annoy me! A lot of them, I feel, don't play it in a true Baroque style. I still listen to them of course. I still listen to Edwin Fischer and admire the wonderful architecture he can build in a fugue. Schiff also. I think in many ways his playing is the closest to mine. I do think there's a way of playing Bach at the piano that is still stylistically correct and that's what I'm looking for.
休：钢琴家们经常让我厌烦。我感觉，很多钢琴家都没有弹出真正的巴洛克风格。当然，我还是会听他们的演奏。我听埃德温·费舍尔，赞叹他在赋格里的漂亮结构。席夫我也听，我感觉从很多方面来看，他的演奏和我最接近。我真的认为有办法在现代钢琴上弹出风格正确的巴赫，这正是我要追求的。

AR: Do you practice a trill very regularly and then break it down into sixteen notes and then try and forget it and do it naturally?
拉：你会不会很规范地练习颤音，然后加快到十六分音符，然后试着忘掉它，习惯成自然？
AH: That's one way of doing it. And I think probably at first for a lot of kids that's the best way. Of course it's much harder to play it freer and keep the other hand steady. What I found in the end, is that you have to think of the other hand, not the trill. You have to think of shaping the more singing notes and let the trill go. But that's a very difficult thing to do. But sometimes, a measured trill, there is a place for that.
休：这是办法之一。我还认为，对于很多孩子来说，这是最好的办法。当然，更加自由地演奏它并且保持另一只手的稳定，这要难得多。我最终发现，你得关注另一只手，而不是颤音。你必须想着如何塑造那些更加歌唱化的音符，颤音就放一边让它颤着。不过这还是很困难的。而有时候，控制得更精准的颤音也有用武之地。

AR: What are the most controversial things about playing Bach?
拉：关于演奏巴赫，什么事情争议最大？
AH: I think the issue of timing, of rubato. I've had so many comments about that. In Singapore, the head piano teacher at the Conservatory came to me and said, "You don't know what a great gift you've given us. The attitude here is that Bach has to be strict and unbending and rigid and you can't take any time, and yours was so wonderful and free and expressive and singing. It's just been a revelation."
休：我想是时间的问题，自由速度。关于这个，我收到过很多很多评论。在新加坡，音乐学院的首席钢琴教师过来和我说：“你可不知道你送给我们一件什么样的大礼。在这儿，巴赫必须刻板严格，不能有任何时值摇摆，而你的演奏却那么自由美妙，具有歌唱的表现力。的确很受启发。”
If there's one thing I can get across to people is that Bach does not have to be rigid and strict and that taking time is allowed. Of course, it has to be done intelligently. Usually it's used to highlight the architecture or the harmonies and not just because you feel like taking a bit of time in that bar. You have to have a reason for it.
如果有一件事我能向大家澄清，那就是演奏巴赫并不是必须精准严格，时值摇摆是允许的。当然，必须处理得很明智。通常这被用来凸显结构框架或者和声，并不只是因为你喜欢在某个小节做自由速度。你必须有这么做的理由。（编者按：关于这一点，很多人误以为自由节拍——Rubato——是浪漫派才有的，这也未免太不懂音乐的精神了，关于这一点可以参见盛原老师的研究。）
I also think that using the Fazioli piano has really made a difference too. You can get so many different colours in it, so many tiny variations of colour, of touch, that it's really added so much to my musical imagination.
我还认为，使用法奇奥里钢琴，可以带来明显不同。你能获得如此多样的色彩，如此多的细微的色调和触键变化。这大大丰富了我的音乐想象。
It's funny, when I go back on this tour, to playing with, shall we say, a piano beginning with S, I have to play a lot more, you know, every note. Especially when I'm playing lightly and maybe quick, it has to be much more every note emphasised. I don't like that. It's not how I play anymore. I'm much more tired at the end too. But I think in combination with the Fazioli I've become more creative with my colour and sound and phrasing.
很有趣的是，当我回到我的巡演中来，用一架…我们就叫它“斯某某”钢琴吧，用它演奏，我必须给得多很多，每个音符都是。特别是当我弹得轻巧快捷时，每个音符都要更多地被强调。我不喜欢这样，这不再是我演奏的方式。到最后我会累得多。而在使用法奇奥里钢琴时，在色彩，音响和句法上我都变得更加具有创造力。

AR: Just talk a bit about what it's like living with Bach.
拉：稍微谈谈和巴赫生活在一起的感受吧。
AH: Well, he's a pretty good friend. He's a demanding friend, I tell you! He gives me sore muscles in my neck! But every minute I spend in his company is worthwhile. I don't think that there's any other repertoire that I could have repeated so often as I'm doing on this world tour and absolutely never get tired of it. It's still a challenge. It's still growing. I'm still perfecting it. He is demanding. He demands great discipline and co-ordination and heart. I feel so much that it's worth it.
休：嗯，他是一个非常棒的朋友。我得告诉你，他可不是省油的灯！他闹得我脖子疼！但是，和他相伴的每一分钟，都是值得的。我不认为还有任何其它的曲目集能让我如此频繁地重复演奏，就像在这次世界巡演里一样，没有丝毫厌倦。它仍具挑战，仍在成长，我还在打磨。他很苛刻，要求强大的自控，协调，以及心性。我打心底里认为值得。
Certainly, all the time you put into learning Bach, it helps you so much with all the other composers afterwards. Things like developing finger legato. So many times in master classes kids play Schubert, Beethoven, Chopin, and they have no finger legato at all. All the legato just on the pedal, it's not the same at all. Just being able to play different voices, with different colours, that helps you with Beethoven too. The fluency you get in Bach, you apply to Mozart, Brahms as well. So I know that all the time I spend with Bach will make it easier with other things too.
你花时间学习巴赫，他必然回报你很多，帮助你面对其后的所有作曲家。比如锻炼手指连奏。我无数次在大师班上，见到弹奏舒伯特、贝多芬和肖邦的孩子们完全没有手指连奏。连奏全指望踏板，这完全是两码事。可以用不同的色彩演奏不同的声部，这也能够帮助你演奏贝多芬。弹巴赫时获得的流畅感，你可以用在莫扎特和勃拉姆斯身上。所以我知道，花在巴赫上的所有时间，都让我更从容地面对其它事情。
He has been quite demanding. I couldn't have done, as I often say, the complete Bach and had four kids at the same time, no. When I began the tour, I couldn't do all 48 from memory, but soon I took the score away from Book One, and in March, went for the whole thing. But it took me that length of time to really have it all safely in my memory. I think it's a hundred times more work to play from memory than to play with a score.
他真是要求高。我常说，我简直没法一边带着四个孩子，一边把巴赫全搞定，没门。当我开始巡演时，我没法把48首全都记住，但是很快我就把第一册的谱子扔一边了，到三月份，我全搞定了。但我花了如此长的时间，才牢牢记住它们。我觉得背谱演奏比看谱演奏费劲一百倍。

AR: Why does it matter?
拉：这个为什么重要？
AH: A lot of people would say that it doesn't matter, that nobody would care, but it matters to me. Firstly, I feel that the audience's concentration is at a higher pitch when I'm doing it from memory, perhaps because they see the concentration on my face and it's translated to them. Plus there's no fooling with pages between prelude and fugue. And I didn't want anyone else sitting there. You demand so much concentration that you don't even want anyone sitting there, turning the pages.
很多人会说，背不背谱无所谓，没人会在乎。但这对我来说很重要。首先，当我背谱演奏时，我会感受到听众更高的专注度，或许是因为他们看到了我脸上的专注，而这又反过来带动了他们。另外，前奏曲和赋格之间也没有了翻谱的尴尬。我不希望任何人坐在旁边。你需要如此高的专注度，以至于不希望任何人坐在那儿翻谱子。
AR: You've been playing this programme for six, seven, eight months. How much does the music continue to reveal itself to you while you're living with it?
拉：你演奏这套节目已经有六到八个月了。在与这些音乐相伴的日子里，它们在何种程度上不断地向你吐露自身？
AH: Up until a month ago it was changing. I'd find different things to do. I don't think now it's going to change dramatically. Just that it will become more part of me each time, which translates into being more authoritative.
直到约一个月之前，它都在变化。我会找到不同的事情去做。现在我不认为它在剧烈变化了，只是它将一次次地变得更加属于我，变得更有说服力。

AR: Is part of the pleasure of playing live feeling that you suddenly have a different kind of connection with the audience?
拉：关于现场演奏带来的快乐，是否有什么东西让你突然感受到和听众之间别样的关联？
AH: You're usually hugely influenced by piano and hall and audience, but the two most important things are the piano and the acoustic in the hall. Also the audience. The greatest gift they can give me is silence. I have decided that coughing or not coughing is a matter totally of discipline and respect for the artist and for the music. In Tokyo, there were people with the face masks on who made no noise at all during the whole 48! But in other halls it's just constant and it can drive you crazy. Especially when you're playing fugues. A combination of the audience, the piano and the silence in the hall. That's when you give your best and most colourful performances.
休：你常常会被钢琴、音乐厅和听众影响很多，但是最重要的两件事还是钢琴和厅堂音响。听众也重要。听众能给我的最大馈赠就是安静。我已经有了结论：咳不咳嗽完全是纪律问题，是尊不尊重艺术家和音乐的问题。在东京，有人带着口罩但却一声不响地听完了48首！但在其它音乐厅，咳嗽声不断，让人抓狂，特别是在演奏赋格的时候。听众，钢琴，还有安静的大厅，有这样的结合，你就能完成最棒最鲜活的演奏。
AR: Can Baroque music simultaneously be romantic?
拉：巴洛克音乐能否也是浪漫的？
AH: It's not romantic like Schumann, no, but if you use "romantic" to mean "very expressive", then, yes, I think so. Pieces like the B flat minor prelude, which is very tragic and romantic. Or the Variation 25 of the Goldberg. It's very intense. You can't get much more romantic than that. It's romantic for his time. As a kid, I was often criticised for making things too romantic, but I think what they meant was too expressive.
休：不像舒曼那样浪漫，不像的，但是如果你的“浪漫”指的是“富有表现力”，那么，我的答案是“能”。比如《降b小调前奏曲》这样的曲子，多么悲伤和浪漫。或者《哥德堡变奏曲》的第25变奏，十分强烈。你简直没法更加浪漫了。在他的时代，这就是浪漫的。小时候，我总是被批评搞得太过浪漫，但我认为他们说的其实是太具有表现性了。
安吉拉·休伊特演奏舒曼钢琴协奏曲（引子和快板）

AR: You mentioned Edwin Fischer. Are there other people of that generation that you get inspiration from?
拉：你提到了埃德温·费舍尔。他的同代人里还有没有谁带给你灵感？
AH: Kempff. You know that marvellous record of transcriptions? You want something romantic - that's romantic - Bach. The joy, the sorrow. He came from a family of organists and evidently could transpose any of the 48, which I certainly couldn't do! Who else is there? Gould I listen to, but I could never imitate him. It was too much him, and not enough Bach, for me. Rosalyn Tureck of course, I grew up on – The Well-Tempered Clavier - although I did always find it a bit lugubrious, not lively enough for me.
休：肯普夫。你知道那些了不起的改编曲录音吧？你想来点浪漫的巴赫，就是它们。那欢乐与悲伤。他来自一个管风琴之家，据信能够移调演奏所有的48首，这我真的做不到！还有谁呢？我也听古尔德，但是我绝不会模仿他，对我来说，这太个人化了，不够巴赫。罗莎琳·图蕾克当然也是，我听她的《十二平均律》长大，不过对我来说，它有点太忧伤，不够活泼。

AR: Of the 48, what are the ones that you have grown to love most?
拉：在48首里面，有哪些令你逐渐着迷？
AH: The C sharp minor, Book One, that wonderful fugue. It comes so early on too, you have to be ready for it, but it's marvellous. Oh my God, there are so many! The G minor, from Book Two, which is a real organ fugue, a fantastic prelude too. Book Two is much more demanding on you in a way.
休：第一册里美妙的《升c小调赋格》。它来得太快，你必须做好准备，不过它棒极了！哦天呐，还有很多！第二册的“g小调”，是个真正的管风琴赋格，还有一个幻想式的前奏曲。某种程度上看，第二册的要求高得多。
Book One is more extrovert, more easily accessible. The preludes in Book Two are much bigger pieces. The fugues in Book Two tend to be more dense, more complicated to understand. Book Two is Bach writing for himself, I feel.
第一册更加外向，更容易接近，而第二册的那些前奏曲是大得多的作品。第二册的赋格也更加致密，理解起来更复杂。我感觉，第二册是巴赫写给自己的。
The second half of Book Two is the most difficult to make your way through, but it is the richest. You have to save yourself for it. It's the most demanding.
第二册的后半部分是最难拿下的，但也是最丰富的。你必须自己谨慎面对，它是要求最高的。
Book One we have in manuscript. Book Two we don't. All the copies we had of Book Two were copies his students made and sometimes there are annotations by Bach in the margin, but there are a lot more variants, little tiny variants in notes or ornamentations that he added at a later date. So there are more decisions to make about textual things.
第一册我们有手稿，但第二册没有。我们掌握的第二册拷贝来自于巴赫的学生，有时候乐谱边角上会有巴赫的注释，但还有更多的变化，因为巴赫之后又针对音符或装饰记号做了小改动。所以在文本选择上有很多文章可做。
AR: What's the secret of pedalling Bach?
拉：弹巴赫的踏板秘诀是什么？
AH: What's the secret? The secret is to figure it out with the fingers first – is to do all the articulation, all legato, whatever you want to do, do it all with the fingers first and then bring in the pedal if there's something you really can't join and want to have joined. That's the secret, I think, to use it only when required. How beautiful it can sound without pedal in the B flat minor. It's very difficult to do and takes great, great control.
休：秘诀？秘诀就是先用手指来解决，所有的演奏法，连奏，你想做的一切，全部先用手指来做，之后如果确实还有没法完成却又想加入进来的东西，再用上踏板。我想，这就是秘诀，只在必要的时候用。即使不用踏板，那首“降b小调”也可以十分美妙，但这很难做到，需要极好、极好的控制。
In a drier hall, I would use a little bit more pedal, but never to blur a passage. For instance, at the end of Book One, the big B minor fugue, I might use it on every sixteenth note. I would pedal each note to give it a bit more resonance.
在混响比较干的音乐厅，我会稍微多用一点踏板，但绝不把段落搞得很糊。比如第一册最后的《b小调赋格》，我或许会在每个十六分音符上分别使用踏板，给它们稍多的共鸣。
Soft pedal can be very useful. On the Steinway in Singapore, it was best to avoid it. But on the Fazioli you can really use it to great effect, to get just a little bit more. Or you could use the fourth pedal too, if you like, if you're playing something very rapid. On the 308, and also on my [Fazioli model] 278, he puts on a fourth pedal. It lowers the keyboard and at the same time the hammer comes closer to the keys so you don't get so much attack. For Beethoven I use it, you know the end of Opus 10, No. 2? You put that fourth pedal down and it's a breeze.
弱音踏板非常有用。在新加坡的那架斯坦威上，最好不用。但是对于法奇奥里钢琴，你的确可以用它来制造漂亮的效果，做得多一点点。或者，如果你喜欢，你还可以在急速演奏的时候使用第四踏板。在法奇奥里308型，或者在我的278型上，加装了第四踏板。它让键盘降低，同时让琴槌和琴键离得更近，所以不会有太多敲击感。弹贝多芬的时候我会用上它，你知道作品十之二吗？踩下第四踏板后，相当轻巧。
AR: What is it about the Fazioli that you've come to love so much?
拉：法奇奥里为什么让你如此喜爱？
AH: It's the response. It's the clarity. It lives under my fingers. I think that's the main thing. I hold those long chords in the D major fugue – and I hold and hold and hold that chord because of the resonance and the harmonics. On other pianos you don't want to hold it that long because it sounds flat, but not on the Fazioli. I really do notice the difference in my muscles when I have to play Steinway rather than Fazioli. I'm much more tired physically with Steinway than I am with a Fazioli.
休：因为反馈，因为清晰性。它就像活在我的指端，我想这就是关键。在《D大调赋格》里，我保持那些长时值和弦，我保持，保持，再保持，为的是共鸣与和声。在其它钢琴上，你不会想保持这么久，因为声音听起来很乏味，但法奇奥里不会。比较起来，在不得不演奏斯坦威的时候，我会注意到我肌肉上的差别。斯坦威会比法奇奥里带来多得多的生理疲劳。
AR: What are the mistakes that pianists make when they play Bach, in your view?
拉：在你看来，钢琴家演奏巴赫的时候会犯什么错误？
AH: Lack of colour. They just play it all too much on the same level. When they play a six-page fugue and it's all on the same level it's awful! It's terrible.
休；缺乏色彩。他们过多地保持在单一的层次上。当他们弹奏一首六页的赋格时，只有一个层次，太可怕！这太恐怖了。
AR: How much do you bring out individual voices?
拉：你在多大程度上呈现出个性化的声音？
AH: One of the true trademarks of a good Bach player is that you can do that. You should be able to play any passage in Bach in as many different ways as there are voices. To think horizontally. Everybody thinks vertically in Bach. I try to always think horizontally.
休：这正是一个优秀的巴赫演奏者真正的标志之一。对于巴赫的任何篇章，你都应该能够有多少声部就采用多少种方式。要横向思考。大家都在纵向思考巴赫，而我总是试着横向思考。
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