巴伦博伊姆讲述音乐里的勇气
SPIEGEL Interview with Daniel Barenboim
德国《明镜》周刊访谈丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆
1、“我们要从象牙塔中取出音乐”丨巴伦博伊姆访谈；2、巴伦博伊姆遇见阿格里奇丨“当音乐家们沉浸在自己的音乐世界中时，他们的表情传递出自然和精神力量。” 3、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“柏林墙倒塌以来，世界一直处于缺乏领导的困境中。”
'The Germans Are Prisoners of Their Past'
德国人是他们自己过去的囚徒
World-famous Argentine-Israeli conductor Daniel Barenboim is noted for his strong views on the Middle East peace process and for performing Wagner's music in Israel. In a SPIEGEL interview, he explains why the Israeli antipathy toward Wagner is grotesque and argues that Israel shouldn't depend too much on Germany and the US for support.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆，阿根廷-以色列人，世界著名的指挥家，以在中东和平进程问题上的强烈观念和在以色列演奏瓦格纳音乐而闻名。在一次《明镜》采访中，他解释了为什么以色列人反对瓦格纳音乐是荒诞的，并且认为以色列不应该太依赖德国和美国的支持。
SPIEGEL: Mr. Barenboim, why are you fighting to perform the music of Richard Wagner in Israel? No other composer is as hated there as this anti-Semitic German composer.
Barenboim: It saddens me that official Israel so doggedly refuses to allow Wagner to be performed -- as was the case, once again, at the University of Tel Aviv two weeks ago -- because I see it as a symptom of a disease. The words I'm about to use are harsh, but I choose them deliberately: There is a politicization of the remembrance of the Holocaust in Israel, and that's terrible.
《明镜》：巴伦博伊姆先生，为什么你要争取在以色列演奏瓦格纳音乐？在那里他是最不受欢迎的反犹德国作曲家。
巴伦博伊姆：以色列官方如此顽固的拒绝瓦格纳音乐的上演，这让我感到很悲哀。——两周前在特拉维夫大学(University of Tel Aviv)也是如此。——因为我认为这是一种疾病的症状。我接下来的言辞是尖锐的，但我是经过深思熟虑的：以色列大屠杀的记忆被政治化了，这太可怕了。
巴伦博伊姆谈《哥德堡变奏曲》
SPIEGEL: Please explain what you mean.
Barenboim: When I came to Israel from Argentina in 1952, as a 10-year-old, no one talked about the Holocaust. The catastrophe was still much too close for the survivors, and young Israelis wanted to create a new Judaism. They wanted to show that Jews were not only able to be artists and bankers, but could also pursue farming and sports. They looked forward and didn't want to talk about the suffering of their parents.
《明镜》：请解释一下你的意思。
巴伦博伊姆：当我于1952年从阿根廷来到以色列时，那时我10岁，当时没有人讨论大屠杀。这场灾难对幸存者来说还是很近的事，年轻的的以色列人想创造一个新的犹太教。他们想证明犹太人不仅能成为艺术家和银行家，而且还能从事从业和体育活动。他们朝前看，不想谈论他们父辈的创伤。
SPIEGEL: When did that change?
Barenboim: With the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in 1961. Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion thought at the time, and rightly so, that it was necessary for the Israelis to experience, based on the example of a perpetrator, what had happened there. Seeing all the savagery, coldness and inhumanity of the Shoah in this individual, Eichmann, was unbelievable. It was the first time that I, like all my school friends, thought about World War II in detail. Suddenly they were saying: We have to do something so that this sort of thing will never happen again.
《明镜》：这种情况什么时候开始改变的？
巴伦博伊姆：从1961年在耶路撒冷对阿道夫艾希曼（Adolf Eichmann）的审判时起。戴维·本-古里安（David Ben-Gurion）总理当时认为，也确实如此，以色列人有必要在一个犯罪份子的例子基础上体验那里发生的事情，他们在艾希曼这个人身上看到了这场浩劫的野蛮、冷酷和不人道，令人难以置信。这是我第一次像我所有的同学一样，详细地思考第二次世界大战。突然，他们说：我们必须做些什么，这样这种事情就不会再发生了。
《月光奏鸣曲》
SPIEGEL: What was wrong with that?
Barenboim: Nothing, of course, but a misunderstanding also arose at the time, namely that the Holocaust, from which the Jews' ultimate claim to Israel was derived, and the Palestinian problem had something to do with each other. Six years after the Eichmann trial, the Six-Day War erupted, and after that war Israel was different than before. Whereas there had been no political opposition to the government's development policy until then, a fierce debate suddenly began after the 1967 victory: Should Israel return the occupied territories or not? The Orthodox Jews even said that they weren't occupied territories, but Biblical regions that had been liberated! An enormous alliance started growing after that, the same alliance of the right and the Orthodox Jews that rules Israel today.
《明镜》：这有什么不对吗？
巴伦博伊姆：当然，没有什么。但是一种误解也从那时开始产生。
即源自犹太人对以色列最终的主张大屠杀与巴勒斯坦问题彼此有关。在艾希曼审判六年后，六日战争（注：1967年第三次中东战争）爆发了，在那次战争之后，以色列和以前不同了。直到那时，人们才对政府的发展政策产生了政治上的反对，而在1967胜利之后，一场激烈的辩论突然开始了：以色列是否应该归还被占领的领土？东正教的犹太人甚至说他们不是被占领的领土，而是被解放的圣经地区！在那之后，一个巨大的联盟开始发展，和今天统治以色列的右翼和东正教犹太人的联盟一样。
SPIEGEL: What does that have to do with Richard Wagner?
Barenboim: Well, since the Six-Day War, Israeli politicians have repeatedly established a connection between European anti-Semitism and the fact that the Palestinians don't accept the founding of the State of Israel. But that's absurd! The Palestinians weren't primarily anti-Semitic. They just didn't accept their expulsion. But European anti-Semitism goes much further back than to the partition of Palestine and the establishment of Israel in 1948. It even goes further back than the Holocaust. Just think of the pogroms in Russia and in Ukraine, the Dreyfus affair in France and anti-Semite Richard Wagner. There is no connection between the Palestinian problem and European anti-Semitism, except that the Palestinians are now expected to pay for historic sins. There are probably many people in Israel who believe that Wagner, who died in 1883, lived in Berlin in 1942 and was friends with Hitler.
《明镜》：这和瓦格纳有什么关系？
巴伦博伊姆：嗯，自从六日战争以来，以色列的政客们一再在欧洲的反犹太主义和巴勒斯坦人不接受以色列建国这一事实之间建立了联系。但这太荒谬了！巴勒斯坦人并不是主要的反犹太主义者。他们只是不接受驱逐。但欧洲的反犹太主义要比1948巴勒斯坦分治和以色列的建立要远得多。甚至比大屠杀还要早。想想俄罗斯和乌克兰的大屠杀，法国的德雷福斯事件和反犹太主义者理查德·瓦格纳(Richard Wagner)。巴勒斯坦问题与欧洲反犹太主义之间没有任何联系，只是现在人们期望巴勒斯坦人为历史罪孽付出代价。在以色列，可能有许多人相信瓦格纳于1883去世，于1942年在柏林生活，并与希特勒成为朋友。
SPIEGEL: His daughter-in-law Winifred made up for that later on. She was a confidante of Hitler, and the dictator was a constant guest at Bayreuth, home of the annual Bayreuth Festival, which celebrates Wagner's operas.
Barenboim: I have the greatest respect for the survivors of the Holocaust. We can't even imagine what these people went through. And yet even they have differing positions. Take, for example, that of my friend Imre Kertész, the Hungarian poet, who is also a Holocaust survivor. We had hardly known each other for two weeks when he said to me: Can you get me tickets for Bayreuth? I respect that there are survivors who can't, and certainly don't want to, listen to this music. But I don't accept that the fact that an orchestra playing Wagner in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem would do any harm to someone sitting in an apartment in Haifa.
《明镜》：他的儿媳维尼夫德（Winified）后来弥补了这一点。她是希特勒的红颜知己，这位独裁者一直是拜罗伊特(Bayreuth)常客，拜罗伊特节是一年一度庆祝庆祝瓦格纳的歌剧的音乐节。
巴伦博伊姆：我对大屠幸存者致以最崇高的敬意。我们甚至无法想象这些人经历了什么，也不知道他们是否有不同的立场。以我的朋友、匈牙利诗人Imre Kertész为例，他也是大屠杀幸存者。我们两周前都还不认识，当他对我说：你能给我弄张去贝罗思的票吗？我尊重那些不能，当然也不愿意，听这音乐的幸存者。但我不能接受这样一个事实：在特拉维夫或耶路撒冷演奏瓦格纳的管弦乐队会对坐在海法的公寓里的人造成任何伤害。
SPIEGEL: What fascinates you about Wagner? Why does he impress intellectuals so much?
Barenboim: Wagner exploited all forms of expression at a composer's disposal -- harmony, dynamics, orchestration -- to the extreme. His music is highly emotional, and at the same time Wagner has extraordinary control over the effect he achieves. That's why there is also something manipulative about Wagner's music, which is not to say that it's not honest. In fact, I believe that it's totally honest, but it also happens to be manipulative.
《明镜》：瓦格纳吸引你的是什么？为什么他给知识分子留下了如此深刻的印象？
巴伦博伊姆：瓦格纳利用作曲家掌握的各种表现形式—和声、力度强弱、编曲——达到了极致。他的音乐是高度情绪化的，同时瓦格纳对他想达到的效果有着非凡的控制能力。这就是为什么瓦格纳的音乐也有一些操纵性的东西，这并不是说它是不诚实的。事实上，我相信这是完全诚实的，但它碰巧也是可操纵性的。
SPIEGEL: Does that also explain the Nazis' affinity for his music?
Barenboim: Wagner can't be held directly responsible for that connection. But Wagner was a terrible anti-Semite. His 1850 essay, "Judaism in Music," is one of the worst anti-Semitic pamphlets of all time. Hitler made Wagner into a prophet. But Hitler, of course, reinterpreted even the worst things Wagner wrote about the Jews in a way for which Wagner cannot be held responsible. I understand, of course, the associations with the Nazis some people have when they hear something like "Lohengrin." 
明镜：这也解释了纳粹对他的音乐的吸引力吗？
巴伦博伊姆：瓦格纳不能对这种关系直接负责。但瓦格纳是个可怕的反犹太主义者。他1850年发表的一篇文章“音乐中的犹太教”是有史以来最糟糕的反犹太主义小册子之一。希特勒把瓦格纳变成了先知。但是希特勒，当然，重新解释了瓦格纳写的关于犹太人的最坏的事情，而瓦格纳不能对此负责。当然，我理解，当一些人听到类似“Lohengrin”（注：《罗恩格林》（Lohengrin）是德国作曲家瓦格纳创作的一部三幕浪漫歌剧）之类的东西时，会把它们与纳粹之间的联系起来。
SPIEGEL: How exactly did it come about that you and your West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, which consists of young Arab and Israeli musicians, performed Wagner?
Barenboim: The musicians wanted it. I said: Sure, but we have to talk about it. It's a tricky decision. It was important to me that we didn't convince any of the musicians to play the music against their will. 
明镜：你和你的西东合集（West-Eastern Divan）乐团，包括年轻的阿拉伯和以色列音乐家，是如何演奏瓦格纳的？
巴伦博伊姆：音乐家们想要演奏这个。我说：当然可以，但我们得谈谈。这是个棘手的决定。对我来说很重要的是，我们不会说服任何一位音乐家违背他们的意愿去演奏音乐。
SPIEGEL: Did the initiative come from the Arabs?
Barenboim: On the contrary. It was the Israelis. The Israeli brass players. Wagner is pretty heavy on the brass section. But I explained the musical importance of Wagner to the orchestra. As a musician, you can't simply ignore him.
明镜：这是阿拉伯人的倡议吗？
巴伦博伊姆：恰恰相反。是以色列人，以色列的铜管演奏家。瓦格纳的铜管演奏占很大部分。但我向管弦乐队解释了瓦格纳的音乐重要性。作为一个音乐家，你不能简单地忽视他。
SPIEGEL: Mr. Barenboim, are you an Israeli patriot?
 Barenboim: What's an Israeli patriot? What is there to be proud of today? How can you be a patriot in a country that has occupied foreign territory for the last 45 years? One that isn't capable of accepting that there is also another account of the last 60 years. Yes, the Palestinians could have accepted the partition of Palestine on Nov. 29, 1947, and that was precisely what they didn't do, because they thought the partition was unjust. Why can't we accept that as a historic fact and turn the page? It's just inhuman.
明镜：巴伦博伊姆先生，你是以色列的爱国者吗？
巴伦博伊姆：以色列的爱国者是什么？现在以什么引以为傲？在过去的45年里，你怎么能成为一个占领外国领土的国家的爱国者？一个不能接受对于过去60年的另一个解释。是的，巴勒斯坦人可能在接受了1947年11月29日对于巴勒斯坦的分割，而这恰恰是他们没有做的，因为他们认为这个分区是不公正的。那为什么我们不能接受这是一个历史性的事实并翻篇呢？这太不人道了。
SPIEGEL: You're lenient with the Arabs, but Israel's neighbors behave in hostile ways. Didn't Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad say that he wanted to wipe the "Zionist entity" off the map?
Barenboim: I'm not naïve. I know perfectly well that there isn't a single Arab or Muslim in the world who would say: There has to be a Jewish state in the Middle East. But why should they say that? Israel's strategy cannot be to constantly confront the Palestinians with the history of the Holocaust, but instead to show them that Israel is a reality. We have made mistakes and you've made mistakes, but we're here and you're here. Let's make peace, with justice for all. It's probably too late for that. But who knows?
明镜：你对阿拉伯人很宽容，但以色列的邻国表现得很敌对。伊朗总统艾哈迈迪内贾德不是说他想把“犹太复国主义实体”从地图上抹去吗？
巴伦博伊姆：我并不天真。我非常清楚，世界上没有一个阿拉伯人或穆斯林会说：中东必须有一个犹太国家。但他们为什么要这么说？以色列的战略不能持续地让巴勒斯坦人面对大屠杀的历史，而是向他们表明以色列是现实存在的。我们犯了错误，你们也犯了错误，但我们在这里，你们也在这里。让我们创造和平，为所有人伸张正义。可能太晚了。但谁知道呢？
SPIEGEL: Why does this conflict seem to be so intractable?
Barenboim: Because the whole world doesn't see it for what it really is. In truth, everyone knows how this story ends: Israel's withdrawal to the 1967 borders and a viable solution to the questions of (the status of) Jerusalem, the borders and the returnees. But it isn't a conflict that can be resolved politically or even militarily. It's a human conflict in which two nations are deeply convinced that they are entitled to the same piece of land. We don't need a Middle East Quartet consisting of the United Nations, the Russians, the Europeans and the Americans. We need a psychiatrist.
明镜：为什么这场冲突看起来如此棘手？
巴伦博伊姆：因为全世界都不知道它到底是什么。事实上，每个人都知道这个故事的结局：以色列撤到1967边界，解决耶路撒冷的地位、边界和返回者的问题。但这不是一场可以通过政治甚至军事手段解决的冲突。这是一场人类冲突，在这场冲突中，两国深信他们有权拥有同一片土地。我们不需要一个由联合国、俄罗斯人、欧洲人和美国人组成的中东四方。我们需要心理医生。
SPIEGEL: And that would help?
Barenboim: 
I'm sure that there are many Israelis who dream of waking up one day to find the Palestinians gone. And there are many Palestinians who dream of going to bed at night and waking up the next morning to find the Israelis gone. If a man dreams about sleeping with Marilyn Monroe, he's certainly entitled to that. But when he wakes up, he has to acknowledge that he is married to someone else.
明镜：那会有帮助吗？
巴伦博伊姆：我相信有很多以色列人梦想有一天醒来，发现巴勒斯坦人不见了。还有很多巴勒斯坦人梦想着晚上睡觉，第二天早上醒来，发现以色列人不见了。如果一个男人梦想和玛丽莲·梦露上床，他当然有权这样做。但是当他醒来的时候，他必须承认他已经和别人结婚了。
音乐编译组公众号往期推送：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。”20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？28、卡萨尔斯论演奏丨“我们必须学会不要每个音符都完全照搬谱子上写的拉。” 29、钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？30、席夫访谈丨“我们必须努力向公众解释如何聆听美妙的音乐。” 31、托斯卡尼尼与川普丨作为权力工具的古典音乐；32、论托斯卡尼尼丨热爱自由并勇于行动；33、布伦德尔谈周善祥丨“你可以雇一个登山向导来教一个小孩儿怎么走路。” 34、指挥家圣克莱尔论布鲁克纳《第八交响曲》丨“他并不浪漫，你在他的音乐中并不能得到像柴科夫斯基或者马勒交响曲中所得到的感受。” 35、“音乐绝对不是知识”丨钢琴家白建宇访谈；36、鲁宾斯坦访谈丨“我告诉家人，如果我坚持钢琴事业太久就开枪打死我。” 37、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（上）丨“在我演奏时，我不是在听大提琴的声音，而是在听一个管弦乐团。” 38、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（下）丨“我从50年代开始指挥，这大大拓宽了我塑造音乐的视野。” 39、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“柏林墙倒塌以来，世界一直处于缺乏领导的困境中。” 40、郑京和的回归丨“当我在舞台上时，上帝与我同在！”41、巴伦博伊姆遇见阿格里奇丨“当音乐家们沉浸在自己的音乐世界中时，他们的表情传递出自然和精神力量。” 42、爸爸巴赫到底有多少小崽子？ 43、我问郑京和，经历了这么多事情，重新站上舞台是什么感觉？44、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 45、他差点成为“古尔德”丨阿劳与巴赫的故事；46、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 47、他是钢琴家，却说自己“的目标是尽量少练习”丨迪巴格访谈；48、“我们要从象牙塔中取出音乐”丨巴伦博伊姆访谈；49、“我不想听伊莎贝拉·福斯特以外任何人演奏的协奏曲。” 50、“我不是唯一戴眼镜的钢琴家”丨迪巴格访谈；51、休伊特访谈丨“你花时间学习巴赫，他必然回报你很多”；52、休伊特访谈丨“要成为优秀的巴赫演奏者，也一定是一位学者。” 53、对话休伊特丨“每只手的每一根手指都可以通过巴赫的音乐的训练而变得有力。” 54、对话休伊特丨“我很幸运，通过做一些能给我和很多人带来乐趣的事情谋生。” 55、男高音阿兰尼亚专访（上）丨“我正在寻求的声音极其简单。” 56、一位世界级男高音的互联网思维丨阿兰尼亚专访（下）
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