捷杰耶夫指挥勃拉姆斯和穆索尔斯基
“I'm a relatively busy man”
“我是个大忙人”丨采访捷杰耶夫
“姐夫”导演的《柴科夫斯基对话布鲁克纳》
Ahead of his appearance with the Munich Philharmonic at this year’s Prom 4, Valery Gergiev gave a long interview to David and Alison Karlin.Here are some of the highlights.
在慕尼黑的演出之前，捷杰耶夫接受了大卫·凯林（David Karlin,）的采访。以下是采访精要。
For a man who spends so much of his time flying across the globe, a man with so many fingers in so many musical pies, Valery Gergiev knows how to stop and smell the roses.When he finds himself in one of the many churches and cathedrals across Russia, he will stop and spend hours listening to the choral singing and the sound of the bells – unique to each place.These people don’t consider themselves classical musicians, he says, but their sounds are at the heart of the tradition of Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Stravinsky.
作为一位在全球巡回演出，赶往许多音乐盛会的演奏家，捷杰耶夫也知晓驻足小憩、欣赏风景之道。当他置身于俄罗斯的教堂和天主堂，他会停下脚步花上几个小时来聆听唱诗班的吟诵和每个地方独特的钟鼓声。他说，这些人并不自恃为古典音乐家，但是他们的音乐深喑普罗科菲耶夫、肖斯塔科维奇和斯特拉文斯基的音乐传统的精髓所在。

Gergiev sees himself as the proud custodian of that tradition, with the mission of bringing classical music to audiences across the world, including some of the least probable places.His modus operandi is simple: start by exposing the audience to the leading performers in the world, preferably free.Play for kids, arrange with the local university to play for students.Give the audience “eye-openers” and “ear-openers”; get them to the point where you have “a public which knows and which in a way demands quality and expects things to be done on a very high level.”
捷杰耶夫说自己是其（俄罗斯音乐）传统的传承人，肩负着使命，要把古典音乐传播到世界各地听众那里，哪怕是最不可能的那个地方。他的做法很简单：让听众一开始就接触到世界顶级的演奏家。而且不收费。给孩子演出，安排到当地学校给学生演出。像启瓶器一样开启听众的耳朵和眼睛；让他们到达那个公众都知道的有高质量需求和高水平完成度的地方。

Children singing in a chorus is the best possible thing.I think it’s even more natural than playing violin or playing piano.He believes that teaching children to sing in choirs is the best musical start you can give them, to which end he chairs the Choral Society of Russia, with a mission to bring together choirs from Russia’s 86 regions.He reminds us how big Russia is – regions like Yakutsk or Krasnoyarsk are six times the size of France; a region three times the size of France is considered mid-sized.
孩子们吟唱圣诗是最可行的事。我想这比让孩子拉小提琴或者弹钢琴更自然。他坚信教孩子唱赞美诗歌是你所所能给予他们最好的音乐启蒙；他指挥的俄罗斯联合唱诗班，集合了来自俄罗斯86个地区的唱诗班成员来完成这一任务。他让我们意识到俄罗斯有多大：比如雅库茨克或克拉斯诺雅茨克相当于6倍大的法国；而三个法国那么大的地方被认为是中型而已。
He has visited around 50 of those regions and hopes that they will set up their own programmes, which he will bring together into large scale events, such as the massive choir set up for the Sochi Olympic Games.It’s all a matter of appointing the right energetic, inspirational choirmasters, and it’s a work in progress – “at best half way”.All these people come to us now, so we don’t have to go anywhere.Audience development has been a major project for a long time.
他访问了50个地区，有意建立他们自己的音乐工程。这样他们可举办大型活动，比如为索契奥运会组织的大型唱诗班。任命活跃有度、灵感丰富的唱诗班长作为至关重要的一环，这样工作才能事倍功半。好在这些人现在都来找我们了，就不需要满世界去找了。听众规模的拓展也不是个短期能完成的大工程。

15 or 17 years ago, the Mariinsky started going into universities and giving free concerts – no tickets, just open doors – with their full orchestra and chorus and stars of the calibre of Netrebko, Borodina, Nikitin, Abdrazakov.That investment has paid off richly, generating an audience big enough to fill the new Mariinsky II, which Gergiev eulogises as “one of the most powerful complexes of our time”.With the advent of Mariinsky II, the scale of the St Petersburg operation is eye-watering, with four chamber venues in addition to the two opera houses (one new, one traditional) and the main concert hall (which has an orchestra pit and can therefore double as an opera house when needed).
15甚至17年前，马琳斯基剧院开始进入大学举办免费的音乐会：不需门票，大门敞开，音乐会舞台上站的都是奈瑞贝科, 博罗基诺, 尼基京, 拉扎克夫水准的明星管弦乐队和诗班。虽然投资花费不少，但也确实让听众增长不少，可以坐满整个马林斯基剧院二期，捷杰耶夫号称我们这个时代最有力量的群体。马林斯基剧院为迎接基督降临节，圣彼得堡运营的规模让人望眼欲穿，4个场馆配合两个歌剧厅，主音乐厅（可进行管弦乐队演出或者需要时作为两个歌剧厅）。
On occasion, they stage three operas on the same day, which they can do because they employ enough singers, dancers and musicians.The scale has enabled them to secure a quantity of old and precious (and expensive) Italian instruments:“This is what makes the orchestra sound very special, not only players but also instruments”.The St Petersburg venues are augmented by the company’s most ambitious venture to date: the “Primorsky Stage” in Vladivostok, just over 9,000 km away (the Primorsky region is where “Siberian” tigers come from).
他们雇佣了足够的演唱家、舞蹈家和音乐家。剧场规模足够他们购置许多又老又贵重的意大利乐器。这些让管弦乐听起来不一样，不仅因为演奏者，也因为这些乐器。圣彼得堡场馆扩建得益于目前为止最富有雄心壮志的投资者：在海参崴，也就是9000km以外是普林默斯基舞台。（普林姆斯基地区是西伯利亚老虎的发源地）

August’s “1st Far East Festival” opened with Prokofiev’s opera Betrothal in a Monastery; it included Diana Vishneva and Yulia Lopatkina, two of the top dancers in the world, as well as the winners of this year’s Tchaikovsky Competition.Gergiev is investing a lot of time in the Primorsky Stage and he expects rapid results – he is hoping to have transformed the region’s audience over a period of six or maybe twelve months.
在8月份的远东节开幕：在修道院举办了普罗科菲耶夫的歌剧院订婚礼。戴安娜•维什涅娃和雨利亚•洛帕特金娜两位世界顶尖舞蹈演员以及今年柴可夫斯基比赛的优胜者们也到场演出。捷杰耶夫在普林姆斯基舞台上投入了大量时间并期待着快速的回报-他希望用6至12个月的时间将这里的人变成听众。

Less confident mortals might have planned on decades.One has to be generous and open and just curious... we have to make institutions so confident that we can spend, lets say, 2% of our overall budget on things which are not “let’s do this, we’ll sell so many tickets”.A recurrent theme is that the Mariinsky can rapidly decide to put on a free concert to build audience goodwill.
不那么自信的凡人不必一次性计划个几世纪的目标。人应当慷慨、开朗、有好奇心……我们不得不让人们相信我们了已将总预算的百分之二用于做这件事，而这件事的意义并非在于“如果这样做，我们将卖出很多票”。如果有一个周期性的主题，马林斯基剧院可以立马决定安排一场免费的音乐会来回馈听众。

Gergiev’s ambition as a proselytiser of classical music – and Russian music in particular – is world wide; “Music doesn’t have borders”, he says.He is heading to Amsterdam to work with the National Youth Orchestra of the USA, which didn’t even exist until he helped co-found it in 2013, on the initiative of Carnegie Hall's Clive Gillinson.He points to a recent trip to Cuba organised on the spur of the moment: the Mariinsky Orchestra was already in North America and it was just before Obama’s visit to Cuba, so he figured it was a unique opportunity to see the country “while it’s still, so to say, Castro country” and while “everything is like it was in 1959”.
捷杰耶夫的雄心抱负是全世界；对于一位古典音乐的传教者——特别是俄罗斯音乐——而言，他说：音乐没有国界。在阿姆斯特丹，他主导了一次与美国国际青年交响乐队的合作；如果不是他，2013年这场演出将根本不存在，一开始只是基林森爵士卡内基音乐厅的提案。他提到最近一次去古巴的旅行，是这段时期很振奋人心的策划：马林斯基剧院的管弦乐队在北美已经准备就绪，正好奥巴马正要去古巴访问。因此，他发现这是一次罕见的机会去看看古巴；而这里仍然是卡斯特罗的国家，每样事物好像还在1959年。
He says it would have been “naive” to expect a contract from the local government or theatre.He fishes out his phone and proudly shows photos of extraordinary marble colonnades from Havana; he talks enthusiastically about the diversity in Latin America, which he has visited recently for the first time, playing to huge audiences – the biggest being at the Auditorio Nacional in Mexico City (which seated 12,450 in the 1968 Olympic games).
他说寄希望于让当地政府或者剧场来签定合同的想法是很天真的。他拿出手机，自豪地展示了在哈瓦那地区特有的大理石廊柱照片；他蛮有兴致地谈起拉丁美洲地区的多样性。因他最近第一次去那里表演，有着庞大的听众群-在墨西哥城的国家剧场，那儿曾举办了1968年奥运会，可容纳12450观众。
Gergiev sidesteps politics for virtually all the interview, apart from expressing sadness at present levels of violence in many countries or the destruction of antiquities at Palmyra, but clearly, he has the political backing to do ad hoc ventures in the knowledge that they will get funded.We have to think what people will say in 20-30 years about this era, this period of time.Gergiev is profoundly conscious of the grand sweep of musical history.
捷杰耶夫在这次访谈中又谈到了政治话题，不仅表达对当今许多国家的暴力升级和对帕梅尔古迹的毁坏感到失望，而且明确让我们知道他们正在筹集资金的情况下也正设立保护遗产这方面的专项投资。我们不禁去想在20或30年后这里的人对这一举动的看法。捷杰耶夫先生深知音乐历史的博大精深。
He is fascinated by how orchestras change over time – for example how the Concertgebouw has evolved over the decades from Mengelberg to Haitink to the present day.For a man not readily described as humble, he shows real humility in considering how future listeners will view his recorded or filmed output.But he’s in no doubt about his mission to lay down audio recordings and film of the great Russian works, especially to fill in those works that he considers don’t have an adequate selection of top quality recordings – Stravinsky’s symphonies or Jeu de Cartes, for example, or Prokofiev’s operas.
他着迷于管弦乐的历史变迁-比方说几个世纪以来音乐厅从门格尔贝格时期到海廷克时期在到现在。一个这样的男人本不该被描述为谦卑；但被问及未来的听众如何评论他的作品他却表现的十分谦虚。他对于自己的使命没有丝毫怀疑，留下声音的记录，重置伟大的俄罗斯作品，特别是填补那些还没有足够水准音乐作品——比如斯特拉文斯基的交响乐（如《扑克游戏》）或者普罗科菲耶夫的歌剧。
Prokofiev’s first opera, The Giant, was written at just nine years old, and Gergiev find it "shocking" to see the genius that was already visible.The Mariinsky performed it in May at one of their chamber venues and had great fun: he thinks they should film it properly some time.He points to Semyon Kotko as an important Prokofiev opera that should be performed more.Gergiev is chairman of the International Tchaikovsky Competition.
他提到普罗科菲耶夫的首部歌剧《巨人》在其九岁时就写成了。捷杰耶夫对于这位天才的锋芒感到震惊。马林斯基剧院在五月上映的他们包厢演出非常有趣：他认为有些部分都可以拍成电影了。他指出《谢苗・科特科》（Semyon Kotko）是普罗科菲耶夫值得被演绎更多的重要歌剧作品。捷杰耶夫也是国际柴可夫斯基比赛的主席。
He suggests that the prize may not be the most important thing; what excites him is that the competition gives young performers the chance to sit down for an hour or more with the great musicians of the age.He remembers learning in this way from Mravinsky, Karajan and many more.He vividly recalls a life-changing four hour meeting in 1988 with Leonard Bernstein, whom he considers a genius and someone he was “somehow destined to meet”.
他说争夺奖项并非最重要的事情：最让他振奋的莫过于比赛让年轻的表演着有机会与同时代的音乐家一起待上几个小时。他把这种学习方式铭记在心。他将在1988年和伯恩斯坦见面的四个小时娓娓道来，这件事成了捷杰耶夫的人生转折：他认为天才和一些人是注定要相遇的。

The pair discussed how to perform Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich; Bernstein was furious that Gergiev did not know his recording of the Shostakovich Leningrad Symphony with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra – the simple truth being that Bernstein’s recording wasn’t available in the Soviet Union.Surprisingly for such a metropolitan creature, Gergiev loves nature and small places.He loves the sensibility to nature of the Scandinavians – their lakes, their forests, the clean air, everything made of wood.It’s one of the reasons why he stays involved every year with the Mikkeli and Baltic Sea festivals – he feels passionately that the Baltic Sea and its environment need help.
他们（伯恩斯坦与捷杰耶夫）讨论了表演柴可夫斯基和肖塔科维奇；捷杰耶夫不了解伯恩斯坦和芝加哥交响乐团共同录制的肖斯塔科维奇交响曲，事实上却是因为他的唱片不允许在苏联境内宣传，伯恩斯坦对这样的事情发生表示愤怒和不解。
令人意外的是，大都市文化下成长的捷杰耶夫竟热爱自然和小地方。他喜欢斯堪迪纳亚地区的自然风景：那里的河流、森林、空气、木制品。这就是为何他每年都去参加波罗的海的节日：他对波罗的海满怀热情，也知道那里的环境需要帮助。
Most recently, the small place that blew him away was Frutillar in Chile, a town of some 10,000 inhabitants two hours south of Santiago – he shows us gorgeous photos of lake, active volcano and the Teatro del Lago, a beautifully constructed 1,200 seat hall which opened in 2010, nestling by the lakeshore.When we ask what is his least favourite airport in the world, the first thing that comes to mind is two and a half hour queue at JFK, surrounded by a lot of furious people.He points out that as a “relatively busy man”, he feels that as a gateway to the country, “something is not quite thought through”.We English may pride ourselves as the masters of understatement, but we have certainly met our match.
最近，又有个小地方——弗鲁蒂亚尔——位于智利（Frutillar in Chile），是圣地亚哥南部的小镇——他让我们欣赏了大量了照片：有湖，有活火山，有湖畔剧场（能容纳1200人的结构华美的音乐厅，于2010年建立于湖畔旁。）当我们问道他最不喜欢的机场，他说他满脑子想是纽约肯尼迪国际机场里面他排了两个半小时队伍。他指出“我可是个大忙人”他觉得只是觉得机场是一个国家的大门，还有一些事情并没足够深入。我们英国人可能会对保守的陈述方式到自豪，但是我们却遇到了对手。
音乐编译组公众号往期推送：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。”20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？28、卡萨尔斯论演奏丨“我们必须学会不要每个音符都完全照搬谱子上写的拉。” 29、钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？30、席夫访谈丨“我们必须努力向公众解释如何聆听美妙的音乐。” 31、托斯卡尼尼与川普丨作为权力工具的古典音乐；32、论托斯卡尼尼丨热爱自由并勇于行动；33、布伦德尔谈周善祥丨“你可以雇一个登山向导来教一个小孩儿怎么走路。” 34、指挥家圣克莱尔论布鲁克纳《第八交响曲》丨“他并不浪漫，你在他的音乐中并不能得到像柴科夫斯基或者马勒交响曲中所得到的感受。” 35、“音乐绝对不是知识”丨钢琴家白建宇访谈；36、鲁宾斯坦访谈丨“我告诉家人，如果我坚持钢琴事业太久就开枪打死我。” 37、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（上）丨“在我演奏时，我不是在听大提琴的声音，而是在听一个管弦乐团。” 38、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（下）丨“我从50年代开始指挥，这大大拓宽了我塑造音乐的视野。” 39、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“柏林墙倒塌以来，世界一直处于缺乏领导的困境中。” 40、郑京和的回归丨“当我在舞台上时，上帝与我同在！”41、巴伦博伊姆遇见阿格里奇丨“当音乐家们沉浸在自己的音乐世界中时，他们的表情传递出自然和精神力量。” 42、爸爸巴赫到底有多少小崽子？ 43、我问郑京和，经历了这么多事情，重新站上舞台是什么感觉？44、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 45、他差点成为“古尔德”丨阿劳与巴赫的故事；46、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 47、他是钢琴家，却说自己“的目标是尽量少练习”丨迪巴格访谈；48、“我们要从象牙塔中取出音乐”丨巴伦博伊姆访谈；49、“我不想听伊莎贝拉·福斯特以外任何人演奏的协奏曲。” 50、“我不是唯一戴眼镜的钢琴家”丨迪巴格访谈；51、休伊特访谈丨“你花时间学习巴赫，他必然回报你很多”；52、休伊特访谈丨“要成为优秀的巴赫演奏者，也一定是一位学者。” 53、对话休伊特丨“每只手的每一根手指都可以通过巴赫的音乐的训练而变得有力。” 54、对话休伊特丨“我很幸运，通过做一些能给我和很多人带来乐趣的事情谋生。” 55、男高音阿兰尼亚专访（上）丨“我正在寻求的声音极其简单。” 56、一位世界级男高音的互联网思维丨阿兰尼亚专访（下）
继续阅读
阅读原文