A Conversation With Violinst Pinchas Zukerman
对话祖克曼（五）
1、谷宇飞专访祖克曼；2、对话祖克曼（1）丨小提琴家为何要学中提琴？3、对话祖克曼（2）丨为何演奏家要学习指挥？以及多大开始学习指挥？4、对话祖克曼（3）丨“伟大的指挥家看上去话不多，糟糕的指挥家却总是喋喋不休！” 5、对话祖克曼（4）丨“古典音乐究竟要向中国传达什么？”
THIRSTY: That leads us to yet another topic. Since you've just mentioned teaching, what would you say about the state of violin pedagogy in this country?
THIRSTY: 这又把我们引向了另一个话题。因为你方才提到了教学，你会怎么评价美国的小提琴教育情况？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Sadly, since the death of Ivan Galamian in 1981, I have to say it has gone downhill. I've seen a considerable drop in what I would call "quality teaching" over the past couple of decades. I'm afraid this is analogous to the situation with conducting. Just because someone can play magnificently, we can't assume that person can conduct – or, unfortunately, teach. These are great points of reference for us to consider when we provide youngsters with information. I could go on and on . . .
Ivan Galamian

祖克曼：遗憾的是，自从伊万·加拉米安于1981年去世，我有必要说小提琴教育是走下坡路了。我所谓的“有质量的教学”，在过去的几十年里，眼见有了相当大的下滑。我担忧，指挥专业的教学状况也好不到哪里去。不能因为某人的演奏水平出众，我们就假设他可以指挥吧——或者，不幸言中，他可以教学吧。当我们向年轻人提供资讯的时候，这些都是需要我们思考的重要参考。我可以这么一直说下去. . .
THIRSTY: You know, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe instead of an interview, you should write a book about the state of music today!
THIRSTY: 你知道吗，我也看到了一样的事。也许除了这场采访，你应该写一本关于如今音乐现状的书！

PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: I'm not ready yet, but I will eventually.
祖克曼：我还没准备好，不过我会这么做的。
THIRSTY: I hope so! But let's continue with teaching. You're on the faculty of the Manhattan School of Music, and you also have the Zukerman ChamberPlayers and Zukerman Trio. I'm sure you want to say something about the importance of ensemble work.
THIRSTY: 期待如此！不过让我们回到教学上来。你现在是曼哈顿音乐学院的教员，你同时还兼有祖克曼室内演奏家室内乐团和祖克曼三重奏。我很确信，关于室内乐作品的重要性你有话要说。
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Indeed! Chamber music reveals the absolute essence of music, because the moment we have to play with someone else, we have to listen. It also provides a friendly atmosphere. It's very interesting; when we have our juniors in Ottawa sit down together to play quartets, quintets, or other ensembles, within two days these twelve-year-olds are talking to each other! Before they start to work together, they tend to keep to themselves.
祖克曼：的确！室内乐揭示了音乐纯粹的本质，因为在我们与他人合奏的那一刻，我们必须倾听。同时，它营造了一片友好的氛围。这是非常有趣的；当我们让初中学员们（渥太华地区）坐下来一起演奏四重奏，五重奏或是其他合奏时，两天之内，这些12岁的孩子们就已经开始互相交流了！在他们没有合奏之前，孩子们更倾向于不相往来。

THIRSTY: Amazing, isn't it?
THIRSTY: 神奇，不是吗？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: The power of music to communicate to people and to get them to communicate with each other is extraordinary, and we see this at many levels. In fact, that's one of the reasons I have the ChamberPlayers. I have always played chamber music, ever since I was nine! For me there is nothing more satisfying than to collaborate with dear friends and be around these great musicians on tour. And I'm very lucky! I have fantastic players. Also, my wife and I travel and perform together, and with other players as well, not just the Zukerman ChamberPlayers. Sometimes our "regulars" are unavailable, due to other professional commitments, so we also play fairly regularly with other wonderful musicians.
祖克曼：在连接众人并让他们相互沟通这件事上，音乐的力量是惊人的，我们在方方面面上都能观察到这一点。实际上，这也是我组建室内乐团的缘由之一。我一直都在演奏室内乐，这甚至要从我9岁时算起！于我而言，和密友们合作无间，在乐声环绕中旅行巡演，没有比这更令人满足的事了。而我非常幸运！我有很优秀的乐手。不仅如此，我的妻子也和我一起旅行、演出，当然我也会和其他乐手合作巡演，可不只是和祖克曼室内演奏家们一起。有时，因为别的演出邀约，我们的乐团“主力”无暇出席，这时我们也会频繁地与其他优秀的音乐家合作。
THIRSTY: At least two of the ChamberPlayers – Jessica Linnebach and Jethro Marks – studied with you at the Manhattan School of Music, so perhaps we can segue onto your role there. My first question is the obvious one. With the orchestras you conduct, the chamber music, and your solo appearances on both instruments, how much time can possibly be left? I mean, you work nine- or ten-day weeks already, but . . .
THIRSTY: 室内演奏家乐团中至少有两人——杰西卡·林内巴赫与杰思罗·马克思——都和你在曼哈顿音乐学院学习，这也许可以让我们延伸到你在学院里的角色。我的第一个问题是显而易见的。考虑到你需要指挥的交响乐团，你在两门乐器上独奏、室内乐演出耗费的时间，你还能有多少时间留给教学呢？我的意思是，你是个一周工作九到十天的人（工作狂），但是. . . 
Jessica Linnebach（右侧女士）

PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Let me begin by stating that I'm really very lucky to have Patinka Kopec to assist me. She and I studied together, and we're cut from the same cloth. She assisted Dorothy Delay for about seven years, and I think that helped her become the great teacher she is today. [Delay (1917-2002) was a student and later teaching assistant of Galamian – ed.] Dorothy had the innate ability to see which violinist could become a good teacher, and she would invite those lucky few to teach with her. Patty Kopec is absolutely second to none as a pedagogue! She intuitively knows how to provide someone with information and enable him or her to play better. I am most fortunate to have been able to work with her for over twenty years. In fact, we've conducted seminars in many different parts of the world. 
祖克曼：在回答这个问题之前，请允许先点名我的助理帕婷卡·科帕克（Patinka Kopec），有她帮助是我的幸运。我和她一起教学，我俩天性相近。她为桃乐西·迪蕾（Dorothy Delay）做过七年的助理，我相信这段经历让她变成了如今这样一位了不起的老师。（迪蕾，1917-2002，是加拉米安的学生，并且之后成为了他的助教）桃乐西识人善任，她知道哪位小提琴手可以成为优秀的老师，而她会邀请那些幸运儿和她一起教学。帕蒂·科帕克（帕婷卡的爱称）是独一无二的教育家！她天生知道该为学生提供哪些讯息以便让他/她演奏的更好。能和她一起工作这二十多年是我最大的幸运。实际上，在世界上许多不同角落，我俩一起组织过研讨课。
Patinka Kopec

We also keep the Zukerman Performance Class in Manhattan very small – perhaps five or six students, though we work with them for a minimum of two to three years, often longer, because it really takes that long to assimilate the information. I've talked with neurologists about this, and they seem to agree. They're probably doing all sorts of research to figure out how to accelerate the process, but for some reason, when it comes to "learning" music, things simply cannot go terribly much more quickly. 
我们把曼哈顿的祖克曼表演课限制在非常小的规模——大约五到六个学生，不过我们却要和学生们一起工作至少两到三年时间，通常会更久，因为想要吸收这些知识真的需要那么长时间。我曾和神经科学家讨论过这件事，而他们对此表示认可。他们可能做过各种研究以期加速学习的进程，但因为某种原因，当所“学”为音乐时，学习过程就是没法再快了。
Dorothy Delay

People used to say about Galamian that he could teach a kitchen table how to play. He taught for over half a century, and so many violinists benefitted as a result. A number also became fantastic teachers: Dorothy DeLay, Margaret Pardee, Robert Lipsett, Lewis Kaplan, and David Cerone, to name just a few. Some of our students continue in the same tradition and are now excellent pedagogues themselves. To name just a few: David Fruehwirth in Austria, Viviane Hagner in Germany, Wu Jie at Manhattan School of Music, Grigory Kalinovsky at University of Indiana/Bloomington, Anne-Estelle Medouze in Paris, and Shuai Shi in China. I view this as a very positive development, and it is most gratifying professionally. Above all, I hope that some of the young musicians coming up today will be able to benefit from the same sort of instruction I got during my developmental years. 
人们过去说加拉米安可以让餐桌学会怎么拉琴。他教了半个多世纪，桃李不言，许多小提琴家都从他的教学中受益。其中的一些自身也成为了很棒的老师：桃乐西·迪蕾，玛格丽特·帕迪，罗伯特·利塞特，刘易斯·卡普兰和戴维·塞隆，等等。我们的一些学生传承着相同的传统，而他们自己如今也是出色的教育者。仅举几例: 奥地利的戴维德·夫霍赫威尔斯，德国的薇薇安·哈格纳，曼哈顿音乐学院的吴杰（译者按：中文名为猜测，没有查到Wu Jie），印第安纳大学伯明顿分校的格里高利·卡林诺夫斯基，巴黎的安·埃斯特尔·迈兜兹，还有中国的帅师（中文名为猜测，没有查到Shuai Shi）。我把这视作非常积极的发展，这也是专业上最令人欣慰的事。我希望今天成长起来的一批年轻音乐家有机会从我当年习琴时得到的教育中收益，这是最重要的。

THIRSTY: Can you identify a few of your most promising students?
THIRSTY: 你可以列举几个你认为最有前途的学生吗？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Jessica and Jethro come to mind immediately. Jessica is Associate Concertmaster of the National Arts Centre Orchestra, and Jethro is Principal Violist. Viviane Hagner has certainly made a name for herself, also. A number of my former students now enjoy successful careers as concertmasters, string principals, and chamber musicians all over the world, and there are also some younger ones – early teens – who show immense promise. 
祖克曼：杰西卡和杰思罗是最先进入我脑海中的。杰西卡是国家艺术中心交响乐团的副首席，杰思罗则是首席小提。薇薇安·哈格纳无疑也赢得了属于她自己的名声。我先前的不少学生在世界各地都有很棒的职业生涯，他们或是乐队首席，或是弦乐首席，或是室内乐手。我还有一些更年轻的学生，这些少年显示着非凡的潜力。
THIRSTY: And you like the idea of teaching them in New York?
THIRSTY: 所以在纽约授教，你喜欢这个点子咯？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: I think New York offers some of the greatest opportunities for young people. I remember being told, "Pinkie, be a sponge! Go out there and absorb it all!" Why, I could go to several different concerts in the same day – and look at the caliber of the artists I got to hear! For about three or four years, that's exactly what I did. I went from concert to concert. And when I could not afford the ticket, I could usually find ways to sneak into the rehearsals! 
祖克曼：我认为纽约为年轻人提供了一些最好的机会。我还记得当年有人这么告诉我，“皮崽（Pinkie，对祖克曼的爱称），像海绵一样学！去把所有的东西都吸收了！”这也是为什么，我可以一天去几场不同的音乐会——并且观察我将要听到的艺术家的水平！在大约三到四年内，这正是我所做的。我一场接一场的听。当我实在买不起票的时候，我总能找到办法溜去听彩排！

What is important about this – for kids today, as it was for me – is that the process of truly learning music is far more than simply practicing all day long in a studio.  One really needs to experience music, and not just one's own instrument, but music of all sorts. It was important for me to hear Isaac Stern, but it was also important for me to hear Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. In fact, let me go even farther with this: We went to Toledo a few months ago to see the El Greco exhibit. A few hours studying those paintings will make anyone a better player! One can see the vision and lighting, and all sorts of colors. The depth of those paintings is unreal! 
重要的是——对于今天的孩子，正如我一样——真正学习音乐的过程远不只是整日枯坐在琴房里练习。一个人需要体验音乐，这不仅仅指他自己所学的乐器，而是各式各样的音乐。于我而言，聆听艾萨克·斯特恩是重要的，但聆听费舍尔·迪斯考一样是重要的。实际上，让我在这个话题上走的再远一些: 几个月前我们去往托雷多观赏了格列柯的画展。画几个小时学习这些绘画作品可以让每个人都变成一位更好的演奏者！人们可以观察绘画的视角和用光，还有各种各样的色彩。这些绘画的深度是超凡的。
El Greco exhibit

THIRSTY: And one artistic experience can carry over into another, here into the music!
THIRSTY: 一种艺术体验可以连觉另一种，这里融入到了音乐！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Sure! If you come to New York, by all means go to the Met, but also go to the Guggenheim! Again, as I was told so many years ago: "Be a sponge!" Take it all in. It's intrinsic, intuitive; I can't really put it into words, but one can learn so much!
祖克曼：当然！如果你来到纽约，当然免不了去大都会歌剧院，但也别忘了古根海姆博物馆！再一次，正如多年前我被教导的那样: “做一只海绵！”吸收所有的一切。这是本性，是直觉；言之不尽，意所难达，但从中必将受益匪浅！
Guggenheim

THIRSTY: Speaking of New York and concerts for young musicians – and not-so-young ones, also, of course – I notice that you'll be playing in Avery Fisher Hall on January 21st.
THIRSTY: 说到了纽约以及为年轻音乐家所举办的音乐会，当然也为那些不那么年轻的——我注意到你将于1月21日在爱弗利费雪厅（林肯中心）上演的音乐会。
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Yes, I'll be playing with someone who has one of the most amazing musical minds I have ever encountered! I refer to the conductor, Iván Fischer, who is extraordinary not only in his technical capacity, but also in his musical vision. The standard to which he raises his musicians is absolutely phenomenal. He founded the Budapest Festival Orchestra more than 30 years ago, and is still their Music Director. We have been to Budapest quite a few times, and when I was invited to perform with them, I immediately accepted. Now they're appearing in Lincoln Center, and I'll do the Mozart A Major [Mozart's fifth violin concerto – ed.] We've toured all over Europe, and it has been a joy to work with him. In fact, you really should do a feature on Fischer, the wonderful work he has done in Budapest, and how he has elevated the standard of playing.
祖克曼：是的，我将和一些拥有我见所未见的、最惊人的音乐思维的音乐人一起演奏！在这里我指的是指挥家，伊万·费舍尔，他出色的不仅是他的技术，还有他在音乐上的视野。他对他的乐手所提出的标准绝对是现象级的。他于30年前创立了布达佩斯音乐节交响乐团，至今他仍是这支乐团的音乐总监。我们去过布达佩斯好几次，当我被邀请与他们一起演奏时，我即刻答应了下来。如今他们将现身林肯中心，而我将演奏莫扎特《A大调》（第五小提琴协奏曲）。我们在全欧巡演，和他合作是愉快的。实际上，你应该去作费舍尔的专题采访，他在布达佩斯做了值得称道的工作，你还可以问问他是如何提升演奏水平的。
Let me give you a little aside. Believe it or not, I've traveled to Budapest more to hear the Gypsies than to perform myself!
容我插一句。相信与否，我去布达佩斯不是为了演奏我的部分，我更多是去听“吉普赛”的！
Avery Fisher Hall

THIRSTY: Really? The Gypsy (Roma) fiddlers?
THIRSTY: 当真？吉普赛（罗马）小提琴？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Absolutely! Some of them have actually become friends of mine. In fact, we had a very talented young boy come over to study with us. Of course, it took some patience on our part. He was so steeped in the Gypsy tradition that he needed quite a while to learn how to play in 4/4 time! Because his English was so poor, we let him count in his native language, but I discovered that the number "two," in Hungarian, has two syllables, and that was his problem! He was falling a beat behind! 
ZUKERMAN: 千真万确！他们中的一些人和我成为了朋友。实际上，一个非常有天赋的小男孩已经在我们这里学习了。当然，这需要我们付出一些耐心。他在吉普赛传统里钻的太深，以至于他要花不少时间来学习4/4拍！因为他的英语不太好，我们允许他用母语数拍，但我发现在匈牙利语里，数字“二”有两个音节，而这正是他的症结所在！他总会因此落后一拍！
By the way, I've known some of the greatest Gypsy fiddlers, like Toki Horvath. I met him after a concert in the Budapest Café in Munich. He was a huge man, perhaps 350 pounds, but he could do some absolutely amazing techniques with a violin. Seriously! I tried to do some of the things he did, and I simply couldn't.
顺带一提，我认识一些伟大的吉普赛小提琴演奏家，比如托奇·霍瓦特（Toki Horvath.）。我和他的相识是在一场音乐会之后，在布达佩斯的慕尼黑酒吧。他是个巨人，大概有350磅重，但是他却可以在小提琴上玩出一些令人称奇的花活。我说真的！我试着去模仿他的技巧，但我就是做不到。
Toki Horvath

THIRSTY: With all your skills and training!
THIRSTY: 凭你的技巧和训练也不行吗！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: "How the Hell do you do that?" I asked him. "Oh, I just play," he explained. Who knows? But the Gypsy tradition is a huge, integral part of what Budapest offers. The city also has a profound love and understanding of music, and I always go there with the greatest anticipation. I feel as though I've just come into Heaven and been told I can stay for a while! When I get to collaborate with talented people I enjoy playing with so much, I feel I'm the luckiest person in the world.
祖克曼：我问他，“天，你究竟是怎么做到的？”他答“哦，我就是拉琴而已。”天知道？不过，吉普赛传统是布达佩斯庞大且不可分割的一部分。这座城市对于音乐有着深刻的爱和理解，我去那儿总会满怀期待。我感觉就像是刚刚身在天堂，就被特许逗留一会儿！当我和那些天才们一起合奏时，我真的沉迷其中，我感觉我就是世上最幸运的人。（未完待续，明天更新最后一部分）
音乐编译组公众号往期推送：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。”
20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？28、卡萨尔斯论演奏丨“我们必须学会不要每个音符都完全照搬谱子上写的拉。” 29、钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？30、席夫访谈丨“我们必须努力向公众解释如何聆听美妙的音乐。” 31、托斯卡尼尼与川普丨作为权力工具的古典音乐；32、论托斯卡尼尼丨热爱自由并勇于行动；33、布伦德尔谈周善祥丨“你可以雇一个登山向导来教一个小孩儿怎么走路。” 34、指挥家圣克莱尔论布鲁克纳《第八交响曲》丨“他并不浪漫，你在他的音乐中并不能得到像柴科夫斯基或者马勒交响曲中所得到的感受。” 35、“音乐绝对不是知识”丨钢琴家白建宇访谈；36、鲁宾斯坦访谈丨“我告诉家人，如果我坚持钢琴事业太久就开枪打死我。” 37、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（上）丨“在我演奏时，我不是在听大提琴的声音，而是在听一个管弦乐团。” 38、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（下）丨“我从50年代开始指挥，这大大拓宽了我塑造音乐的视野。” 39、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“柏林墙倒塌以来，世界一直处于缺乏领导的困境中。” 40、郑京和的回归丨“当我在舞台上时，上帝与我同在！”
41、巴伦博伊姆遇见阿格里奇丨“当音乐家们沉浸在自己的音乐世界中时，他们的表情传递出自然和精神力量。” 42、爸爸巴赫到底有多少小崽子？ 43、我问郑京和，经历了这么多事情，重新站上舞台是什么感觉？44、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 45、他差点成为“古尔德”丨阿劳与巴赫的故事；46、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 47、他是钢琴家，却说自己“的目标是尽量少练习”丨迪巴格访谈；48、“我们要从象牙塔中取出音乐”丨巴伦博伊姆访谈；49、“我不想听伊莎贝拉·福斯特以外任何人演奏的协奏曲。” 50、“我不是唯一戴眼镜的钢琴家”丨迪巴格访谈；51、休伊特访谈丨“你花时间学习巴赫，他必然回报你很多”；52、休伊特访谈丨“要成为优秀的巴赫演奏者，也一定是一位学者。” 53、对话休伊特丨“每只手的每一根手指都可以通过巴赫的音乐的训练而变得有力。” 54、对话休伊特丨“我很幸运，通过做一些能给我和很多人带来乐趣的事情谋生。” 55、男高音阿兰尼亚专访（上）丨“我正在寻求的声音极其简单。” 56、一位世界级男高音的互联网思维丨阿兰尼亚专访（下）；57、钢琴家波利尼丨“我永远不选音乐之外的另一种生活！”；58、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“我相信有很多以色列人梦想有一天醒来，发现巴勒斯坦人不见了。” 59、钢琴家马加洛夫回忆他第一次听到李帕蒂演奏；60、乔治乌访谈丨“在我之前歌剧演唱家不需要美貌。” 61、内田光子论莫扎特丨“没有什么比音乐家的生活更美好。” 62、捷杰耶夫访谈丨他要把古典音乐传播到世界各地，哪怕是最不可能的地方丨捷杰耶夫访谈；63、谷宇飞专访祖克曼丨“你必须与坐在音乐厅最后一排的观众积极传达你所演奏或指挥的曲目的意义。”
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