小提琴手的音色是一切的根本。许多年前，我告诉一个学生，小提琴手的右臂是他的“银行存款”，为什么呢？因为如果你能更好的使用你的执弓臂——右臂——你就能挣更多的钱！这条建议对我的学生们有巨大的效用，因为我们的演奏，85%都要靠右臂——至少在我们所要展示的声音质量上，在这个范围内如此。坦率地说，如果学生没有掌握好执弓臂的技巧，他们就会转向拨弦，在这种情况下他们也有可能转行去学吉他。伟大的乐手——无论小提，中提，大提——都总是在谈论右手。——题记
A Conversation With Violinst Pinchas Zukerman
对话祖克曼（六）
1、谷宇飞专访祖克曼；2、对话祖克曼（1）丨小提琴家为何要学中提琴？3、对话祖克曼（2）丨为何演奏家要学习指挥？以及多大开始学习指挥？4、对话祖克曼（3）丨“伟大的指挥家看上去话不多，糟糕的指挥家却总是喋喋不休！” 5、对话祖克曼（4）丨“古典音乐究竟要向中国传达什么？” 6、对话祖克曼（5）丨“加拉米安去世后，小提琴教育走下坡路了。”
THIRSTY: On the subject of collaborations, you certainly do a fair amount of that with your wife, Amanda Forsyth. What is it like for her, as principal cellist of NACO and you on the podium? You also play chamber music quite often. Is it true that couples who play chamber music together stay together?
THIRSTY: 提到合奏，显然你和你的夫人，阿曼达·霍茜（Amanda Forsyth），有许多合作。当你站在指挥台上而她身为NACO的首席大提时，她是怎样的？你经常演奏室内乐。是不是室内乐的拍档总会走到一起呢？
Amanda Forsyth

PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: We enjoy playing together, and – to anticipate the obvious question – we like to criticize one another. It's good; we can both learn and improve. If someone holds a note too long – which is something I often do – it is great to have someone like Amanda, snap, "Hey, what are you doing there? You're holding four beats, but it's only three!"
祖克曼：我们享受一起演奏的时光，而且——一个显而易见的问题是——我们喜欢互相批判。然而这很好；我们可以互相学习，互相进步。如果我俩哪个人一个音拉的太长——我经常会这样——能有阿曼达这样的人拍醒我总是好的，“嗨，你在干嘛呀？你已经延了四拍了，但它只有三拍！”
THIRSTY: Surely you jest!
THIRSTY: 你在开玩笑！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Well, maybe! But we actually do provide each other with the feedback perhaps only a spouse can offer. We might resent such picayune criticisms if we were working with a stranger – unless it was someone we had worked with for a long time – but as husband and wife we accept them.
祖克曼：好吧，也许！但我们相互之间确实可以提供一些只有夫妇才能给出的建议。如果我们和陌生人合作，或许会抱怨那些廉价的批评——除非我们之间已经合作很久——但是作为夫妇，我们互相接受。

Of course, there are some people with whom I have played for many, many years, like (violist) Michael Tree. But still, it's slightly different with Amanda. It's an absolutely wonderful musical and personal partnership.
当然，有的人我已经和他们合作了很多很多年，比如迈克尔·树（Michael Tree，February 19, 1934 – March 30, 2018，小提琴家，刚刚过世了，我们深表难过）不过，他和阿曼达还是有些微不同的。与阿曼达，那是一种绝妙的伙伴关系，既是音乐上的也是私密的。
Michael Tree

THIRSTY: It certainly sounds that way. Long may it last!
THIRSTY: 听起来确实如此。愿你们长长久久！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Thanks! If you ask her, Amanda will tell you I'm "like clockwork." Every day I get up, shower, and start to practice. That's my routine, and I will do it as long as I have the energy and the inclination to do so. For me, that's every day. I take the violin out of the case –
祖克曼：谢谢！如果你问她，阿曼达会告你，我活的像“钟表”（一样严格）。每天晨起，洗漱，然后开始练琴。这是我的惯例，只要我还有力气还有意向这么做，我将一直这样做下去。于我而言，就是每一天，把小提琴从琴盒里取出来——
THIRSTY: . . . and the viola?
THIRSTY: . . . 和中提琴？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: I practice the viola less regularly, generally only when I have to perform. The basic coordination and techniques are so similar that one doesn't need to practice both instruments separately. However, I shall be performing on the viola again in September – with Itzhak Perlman; we're doing the Sinfonia Concertante. I'll take out the viola a couple of days beforehand for some serious practicing then, more to remind myself of the passages. The rest should still be there – the bow arm, the fingers. It's a little bit like the concert pianist who has to play so many different instruments over the course of a season. Gary Graffman told me he simply practiced on the piano for a couple of hours to figure out (or remember) how that particular instrument worked. It's similar with viola. When one first starts out – and, of course, with a new work – it's a little different, but when one has performed something so many times, it's not a major transition from the violin.
祖克曼：中提琴我练的没那么勤，通常只有当我需要演奏时才会练。两种乐器的基础技术是非常相似的，我并不需要把它们分开来练习。然而，九月份我又要演奏中提琴了，和伊萨克·帕尔曼一起；我们要合奏交响协奏曲。到时，我会提前几天把中提琴拿出来认真练一练，但这更多是为了帮自己记住那些乐句。其余的技术比如弓法，指法是不会因为换了乐器就跑掉的。这有点类似音乐会钢琴演奏家们，他们一个月季要熟悉各种各样的乐器。加里·格拉夫曼告诉我，他曾经花了几个小时练琴以便弄清（或记下）那些乐器究竟是怎么运作的。这和我练习中提琴是类似的。当人刚开始练习的时候——还有，自然，学习新作品的时候——两种乐器间是稍有不同的，但当人们已经演奏一个作品很多次后，从小提琴换到中提琴并不是多大的转变。

Of course, some works are harder than others. For example, when I played the Bartok concerto in May, I needed to work longer – a good week or so – to remind myself how the piece goes. But for something like the Concertante or one of the Brahms sonatas, I certainly don't feel the need to practice every day. 
当然，有的作品会更难。举例而言，当我五月份演奏巴托克的协奏曲时，我需要工作更长时间——一周左右——来让自己记住音乐的走向。但对于某些作品比如交响协奏曲或者勃拉姆斯的一首奏鸣曲，我并不觉得每天需要花那么多时间练习。
THIRSTY: So you play the violin every day, and the viola only before a performance.
THIRSTY: 所以你每天都演奏小提琴，但对中提琴只会在演奏前练习。
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: That's right, and the very fact I remember when I have to play viola should tell you how infrequently I do so! Actually, it's not my choice; people simply don't ask me to perform on viola that often. I don't know why. Sometimes, in fact, I have to suggest a piece – maybe the Hindemith Kammermusik #5, or the Telemann concerto, or the Bartok. On those occasions, I'm delighted to practice the viola again, which I must do to re-familiarize myself with the music. The instrument itself also benefits, because it needs to be played, and it clearly sounds better after an hour or so.
祖克曼：是的，记忆里我演奏中提琴的场合，实话说很少。实际上，这也不是我的选择；观众们并不那么频繁的要求我演奏中提琴。我并不知道为什么。有的时候，实际上，我必须向他们推荐一些中提琴作品——可能是亨德米特的室内乐第五号，或是泰勒曼的协奏曲，或是巴托克。在这些情况下，我会很愉快的重新拾起中提琴，因为我必须让自己再一次熟悉那些音乐。这对乐器也是有好处的，因为它需要被演奏，练一个小时以后，乐器的音色也会明显的改善。

THIRSTY: By the way, I know you play a del Gesu [Guanerius] violin. Who made your viola?
THIRSTY: 顺带一提，我知道你演奏一把德尔·杰苏（瓜奈里）小提琴。那么你的中提琴是谁做的呢？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: The grandfather and father of Bartolomeo – Andrea and Giovanni Guarneri.
祖克曼：巴尔托洛梅奥的祖父和父亲——安德烈亚和乔瓦尼·瓜内利。
THIRSTY: Both of them? 
THIRSTY: 他们两位一起？
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Yes! Andrea made the bottom and sides, and his son, Giovanni, made the top. I'm so lucky! That viola of mine is one of the greatest ever made, and between the two instruments, I have 102 years of the same family's DNA.
祖克曼：是的！安德烈亚作琴的背板和侧板，而他的儿子，乔瓦尼，作面板。我真幸运！我的琴是世上最棒的中提琴之一，而在我的两把琴上，传承着同一个家族102年的DNA。

THIRSTY: That's quite a lineage! 
THIRSTY: 真是一脉相承。
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Yes, I have that in my instrument, and my wife does, also, in a very different sense. Amanda comes from a distinguished musical lineage. Her father, Malcolm Forsyth, was a wonderful composer and also trombone player for the Edmonton Symphony for many years. In fact, I played the Sibelius concerto with them in 1985, and he was in the orchestra. Of course, I didn't know him then, but his Atayoskewin (Suite for Orchestra) won the Juno Award for "Classical Composition of the Year" in 1987. 
祖克曼：我的乐器里有那种传承，我妻子的乐器也是如此，不过是另一种意义上的传承。阿曼达来自一个杰出的音乐家族。她的父亲，马尔科姆·福赛思（Malcolm Forsyth），是一位非凡的作曲家，同时他做为长号手也在埃德蒙顿交响乐团任职多年。实际上，我在1985年和这支乐团一起演奏了西贝柳斯的协奏曲，而他当时就在乐团里。当然，那时我并不认识他，但他的交响组曲（Atayoskewin）赢得了1987年“年度古典作曲大赛”的朱诺奖。
Malcolm Forsyth

THIRSTY: Speaking about a musical lineage!
THIRSTY: 说说看这一家的音乐传承！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Amanda also has an immense knowledge of the opera. In fact, she can probably sing most of the arias in the standard repertoire, because her father taught them to her. Moreover, he taught her about rhythm, including the meters we don't encounter all that often. She can do "fives" and "sevens" effortlessly. 
ZUKERMAN: 阿曼达在歌剧方面的知识量是巨大的。实际上，常规的咏叹调曲目她可能都会唱，因为她父亲教过她这些。不仅如此，他还教她节奏处理，这里面包含了一些我们平常不怎么见得到的那些节奏型。她可以毫不費力的演奏“五拍子”和“七拍子”。
THIRSTY: Let's not go there! Some of us have trouble just with eighth-notes ("twos") and triplets ("threes")!
THIRSTY: 别再说下去了！我们中的一些甚至在八分音符（“二拍子”）和三连音（“三拍子”）上都会卡壳！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Well, she started counting in five beats to a measure – or even seven – when she was four years old. Her father understood how important these skills might be to her as she progressed in music.

祖克曼：好吧，她从四岁时就开始每小节数五拍——甚至七拍了。她的父亲明白这些技巧对于他的女儿在音乐上的发展有多重要。
THIRSTY: As indeed she did!
THIRSTY: 她的确如此！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Absolutely! When people hear us perform together, they can appreciate our understanding of the music and each other, as well as the content. Good ensemble play doesn't just "come from the air." Things need to be worked out, and it helps when two performers share a profound understanding of music. 
祖克曼：当然！当人们听到我俩一起演奏的时候，他们会欣赏我俩在音乐上与彼此间的理解，当然还有音乐本身。好的重奏可不只是“凭空而来”的。音乐需要磨合、历练，如果两位演奏者对音乐本身都有深刻的理解，这将大有助益。
Of course, we also need to re-hash the details as we return to a given work, and that's the beauty of this art! For example, I played the Beethoven concerto a few days ago in Mexico, and I shall play it again shortly in Verbier. I'm looking forward to it, to hearing that sound from the orchestra, and working out the details again. I always strive to do something a little better with a given phrase than I may have managed the time before. It is exhilarating; it revitalizes my senses. I'll get to hear a given passage with a different horn player, and perhaps the sound will be different.
当然，对于某些作品，我们也要反复精扣细节，而这也是艺术之美！举例而言，几天前我在墨西哥演奏了贝多芬的奏鸣曲，很快我又要在韦尔比耶演奏它。我对它很期待，期待那琴声从交响乐团的和声中飘出，期待着对细节再做一些处理。相较于我之前的处理，我总是努力对个别乐句做出些微改善。这种改变令人振奋；它能为我的感官注入新的活力。我会听不同的号手演奏同一段经过句，声音的效果也许会有所不同。

THIRSTY: And perhaps your own sounds will be different!
THIRSTY: 也许你自己的琴声也会不同！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: I hope so! A violinist's tone is everything. Years ago I told a student that the right arm is the violinist's "bank account." Why? Because if you play better with the bow arm – the right arm – you'll make more money! And this advice has an enormous impact on my students, because 85% of what we do comes from the right hand – at least insofar as the quality of sound we project. Quite bluntly, if students don't have the bow arm, they're reduced to pizzicato, in which case they might as well switch to guitar. The great players – violin, viola, cello – always talk about the right hand.
祖克曼：我希望如此！小提琴手的音色是一切的根本。许多年前，我告诉一个学生，小提琴手的右臂是他的“银行存款”，为什么呢？因为如果你能更好的使用你的执弓臂——右臂——你就能挣更多的钱！这条建议对我的学生们有巨大的效用，因为我们的演奏，85%都要靠右臂——至少在我们所要展示的声音质量上，在这个范围内如此。坦率地说，如果学生没有掌握好执弓臂的技巧，他们就会转向拨弦，在这种情况下他们也有可能转行去学吉他。伟大的乐手——无论小提，中提，大提——都总是在谈论右手。

Here's another interesting pedagogical point: If I ask students to verbalize – to put into words – what they've just done with their right hands, I find very few can actually articulate the skills they've applied. I want them to become more aware of what they're doing. Of course, there are hundreds and hundreds of aspects involved in producing a gorgeous tone, but when we actually hear it from a great performer, it always seems to emerge so easily and naturally. 
在教育学意义上还有一个有趣的点: 如果我让学生一言以蔽——即用文字描述——他们刚刚用自己的右手完成了什么，我发现只有很少的一部分学生可以准确的描述他们运用的技法。我希望他们多加注意自己到底做了什么。当然，为了拉出好音色，涉及到的方方面面数以百计，但当我们真切的从伟大演奏家的演奏中听到那些好音色时，那乐音却总是出现的轻松又自然。
Now let me share something else I try to teach. Talented players must strive to attain the highest possible levels in their art. I am reminded of another thing Celibidache once told me: "Pinkie," he explained, "mediocrity is poison, so stay away from it." I've never forgotten this, and have passed the word on to my students. To this day, when I hear people pontificating on a given topic and can see they don't know what they're talking about, I simply walk out of the room!
现在，让我再分享一些我试图传授的东西。有天赋的乐手必须努力达到他们艺术里的可能的最高水平。我想起了切利比达克曾告诉过我的另一件事：“皮崽（Pinkie，编者按：祖克曼的昵称？），”他解释道，“平庸有毒，要远离平庸。”我永远不会忘了这句话，并且把它传达给了我的学生。直到今天，当我听到有的人对于某个话题武断自大、夸夸其谈却又不知所云的时候，我会径直走出那个房间！
THIRSTY: That must cut down on your concert attendance!
THIRSTY: 那估计不少音乐会入不了你的法眼！
PINCHAS ZUKERMAN: Right! I go to very few concerts per year, and if I don't like what I'm hearing, I leave the hall. Of course, if I hear someone play well, I stay, because I want to learn something from the performance. 
祖克曼：是的！我每年只会出席几场音乐会，如果我不喜欢我所听到的，我会离开音乐厅。当然，如果我听到那位乐手演奏极佳，我会留下，因为我希望在那种表演里有所收获。
THIRSTY: I suspect this leads us back to what you said earlier about some of today's conductors.
THIRSTY: 我怀疑这又把我们带回了你早些时候说过的那个话题，关于今天的一些指挥家的那个。（未完待续，明天才是最后一部分……欢迎支持译者！！！他实在是翻译的很棒！）
音乐编译组公众号往期推送：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。”
20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？28、卡萨尔斯论演奏丨“我们必须学会不要每个音符都完全照搬谱子上写的拉。” 29、钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？30、席夫访谈丨“我们必须努力向公众解释如何聆听美妙的音乐。” 31、托斯卡尼尼与川普丨作为权力工具的古典音乐；32、论托斯卡尼尼丨热爱自由并勇于行动；33、布伦德尔谈周善祥丨“你可以雇一个登山向导来教一个小孩儿怎么走路。” 34、指挥家圣克莱尔论布鲁克纳《第八交响曲》丨“他并不浪漫，你在他的音乐中并不能得到像柴科夫斯基或者马勒交响曲中所得到的感受。” 35、“音乐绝对不是知识”丨钢琴家白建宇访谈；36、鲁宾斯坦访谈丨“我告诉家人，如果我坚持钢琴事业太久就开枪打死我。” 37、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（上）丨“在我演奏时，我不是在听大提琴的声音，而是在听一个管弦乐团。” 38、罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（下）丨“我从50年代开始指挥，这大大拓宽了我塑造音乐的视野。” 39、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“柏林墙倒塌以来，世界一直处于缺乏领导的困境中。” 40、郑京和的回归丨“当我在舞台上时，上帝与我同在！”
41、巴伦博伊姆遇见阿格里奇丨“当音乐家们沉浸在自己的音乐世界中时，他们的表情传递出自然和精神力量。” 42、爸爸巴赫到底有多少小崽子？ 43、我问郑京和，经历了这么多事情，重新站上舞台是什么感觉？44、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 45、他差点成为“古尔德”丨阿劳与巴赫的故事；46、基辛访谈丨“我们钢琴家非常幸运：钢琴曲目如此之多，我只希望活得足够长，能学到我想演奏的一切。” 47、他是钢琴家，却说自己“的目标是尽量少练习”丨迪巴格访谈；48、“我们要从象牙塔中取出音乐”丨巴伦博伊姆访谈；49、“我不想听伊莎贝拉·福斯特以外任何人演奏的协奏曲。” 50、“我不是唯一戴眼镜的钢琴家”丨迪巴格访谈；51、休伊特访谈丨“你花时间学习巴赫，他必然回报你很多”；52、休伊特访谈丨“要成为优秀的巴赫演奏者，也一定是一位学者。” 53、对话休伊特丨“每只手的每一根手指都可以通过巴赫的音乐的训练而变得有力。” 54、对话休伊特丨“我很幸运，通过做一些能给我和很多人带来乐趣的事情谋生。” 55、男高音阿兰尼亚专访（上）丨“我正在寻求的声音极其简单。” 56、一位世界级男高音的互联网思维丨阿兰尼亚专访（下）；57、钢琴家波利尼丨“我永远不选音乐之外的另一种生活！”；58、巴伦博伊姆访谈丨“我相信有很多以色列人梦想有一天醒来，发现巴勒斯坦人不见了。” 59、钢琴家马加洛夫回忆他第一次听到李帕蒂演奏；60、乔治乌访谈丨“在我之前歌剧演唱家不需要美貌。” 61、内田光子论莫扎特丨“没有什么比音乐家的生活更美好。” 62、捷杰耶夫访谈丨他要把古典音乐传播到世界各地，哪怕是最不可能的地方丨捷杰耶夫访谈；63、谷宇飞专访祖克曼丨“你必须与坐在音乐厅最后一排的观众积极传达你所演奏或指挥的曲目的意义。”
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