郎朗、巴伦博伊姆四手联弹《舒伯特军队进行曲》
interview with Daniel Barenboim
"The world is suffering from a lack of leadership"
巴伦博伊姆访谈
——世界正遭受缺乏领导力之困
推荐阅读：《在音乐与社会中探寻——巴伦博伊姆、萨义德谈话录》摘录；音乐是逃避人类生存困境最好手段丨读巴伦博伊姆《生活在音乐中》；生与死的关系就如声音与寂静的关系丨读巴伦博伊姆的《生活在音乐中》①；指挥家巴伦博伊姆丨他伸出手臂，不是像交警一样指挥，似乎是伸向琴弦……；巴伦博伊姆的爸爸是如何教他学钢琴的丨读《生活在音乐中》②
In conversation with Maria Santacecilia, the star conductor and co-founder of the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, Daniel Barenboim, analyses the consequences of the aggravated Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its effects on his orchestra, which celebrates its fifteenth anniversary this year
在和玛丽亚·圣塞西莉亚（Maria Santacecilia）的谈话中，明星指挥家兼西东合集管弦乐团联合创始人丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆分析了巴以冲突加剧的后果以及对他的乐团的影响，今年是该乐团成立的第十五周年。
巴伦博伊姆谈如何欣赏音乐
The West-Eastern Divan Orchestra celebrates its fifteenth anniversary this year. How do you feel about its development so far?
问：今年，西东合集管弦乐团庆祝了它成立十五周年的纪念日。到目前为止，您认为它发展得怎么样？
Daniel Barenboim: From an artistic point of view, it's been very positive. To begin with, it was a youth orchestra, in which the quality of the musicians varied. That balanced out later. It now has a wide repertoire, which it performs on large stages in places like the Salzburg Festival, Berlin, London …
On the non-musical level, the outcome has been less impressive. The true greatness of the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra will only be reached on the day it can play in Libya, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Palestine, Turkey and Iran – the countries the musicians come from. We played once in Palestine in 2005; that would be inconceivable today.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：从艺术的角度来看，是非常积极的。最初，西东合集管弦乐团是个青年管弦乐团，音乐家的素质也各有差异，后来，这些得到了平衡。而现在，乐团拥有广泛的曲目库，可以在萨尔茨堡音乐节、柏林、伦敦等大型舞台上演绎。
在非音乐层面，成果就没有那么令人印象深刻。西东合集管弦乐团真正的伟大之处，只有在它能在利比亚、叙利亚、约旦、埃及、以色列、巴勒斯坦、土耳其和伊朗等这些音乐家们的祖国演奏的那天才能被体现。2005年，我们曾在巴勒斯坦演出过，这在今天看来非常不可思议。
巴伦博伊姆解释听到音乐和听音乐的区别
The situation in the Middle East took a dramatic turn for the worse this past summer. Did that have an effect on the way the orchestra members work together?
问：去年夏天，中东局势急剧恶化。这有对乐团成员的合作方式产生影响吗？
Barenboim: Some were undecided about whether to travel. In the end they all came, but the first few days weren't easy because the Israelis and the Palestinians had very different views on the Gaza War. There were some very difficult moments. But you can't expect a Palestinian to empathise with an Israeli family that feels threatened, or an Israeli to feel empathy for the dreadful things happening in Gaza.
Compassion is a different matter. Sympathy and empathy are emotional reactions, but compassion is a moral obligation. I said to them: "If there's an Israeli here who has no compassion for the Palestinians, or an Arab who feels no compassion for the Israelis, then they're in the wrong orchestra." The interpretation of historical events and the moral obligation for compassion are two different things.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：有些人没有决定好是否坚持巡演。最终，他们都来了，但是最初的几天并不容易，因为以色列人和巴勒斯坦人对加沙战争的看法非常不同。有些时刻真的非常艰难。但是，你不能指望一个巴勒斯坦人会和一个感觉受到威胁的以色列家庭产生共鸣，或者一个以色列人对加沙发生的一些可怕的事情感同身受。
恻隐之心又是另一回事。同情和感同身受是情绪反应，但是恻隐之心却是道德责任。我对他们说，“一个以色列人如果对巴勒斯坦人没有恻隐之心，或者一个阿拉伯人对以色列人没有恻隐之心，那他们就来错乐团了。”对历史事件的解读和恻隐之心的道德责任是两个不同的东西。
Were there debates between the musicians?
问：在音乐家之间会有争论吗？
Barenboim: This is not a political project, but a human one. We are not aiming for political consensus between the orchestra members. With 120 people from the region in the orchestra, that wouldn't be possible. But we do try to help them accept the others' views, think about them and make an effort to understand them – especially when they don't entirely agree with them.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：这不是一个政治项目，而是一个关于人的项目。我们的目标不是在乐团成员之间达成政治共识。我们乐团中有120个人来自这个非常地域，政治上一致是不可能的。但是我们尽力帮助他们接受别人的观点，思考这些观点，并努力去理解它们，尤其是当我们并不完全同意这些观点时。
Deutsche Welle recently interviewed the Israeli writer Amos Oz. He began the interview with a question: "What would you do if your neighbour across the street sat down on the balcony, put his little boy on his lap and started shooting machine gun fire into your nursery?" Mr Barenboim, would you have an answer to that question?
问：德国之声最近采访了以色列作家阿莫斯·奥兹。他在采访开始时提出了一个问题：“如果街对面的你的邻居坐在阳台上，把他的小孩儿放在他的腿上，并开始向你的育儿室开枪，你会怎么做？”巴伦博伊姆先生，您能回答这个问题吗？
Barenboim: Many people in Israel – not all of them – are all too fond of asking questions about others' duties, but never ask themselves about their own obligations. When we talk about history, we can't just refer to the month of July 2014, we have to go much further back.
To put it in an appropriate framework, the story begins around about the time of World War I, when the Jews in Palestine made up less than 15 per cent of the population. How did it happen that they possess a state of their own and the Palestinians became refugees in their own country and a minority?
Questions have to be asked on both sides. When it comes to the past, there is sadly no clear and coherent answer for both. What remains of the invasion of Gaza, regardless of whether it was justified or appropriate or not? There are countless dead to be mourned, including children. And hate has been stoked up that will be very difficult to get rid of for several generations. It's not easy to talk about hate between adults, but how much worse is hate among children… The operation in Gaza resulted in a great deal of suffering for the Palestinians. The outcome for Israel is that it's gone back to square one. The former Spanish prime minister Felipe Gonzalez called it a "permanent stand-off".
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：许多以色列人，但不是所有的，都喜欢询问关于别人的责任，但从来不问他们自己的义务。当我们谈论历史时，我们不能只提到2014年7月，我们必须回顾更远。
把这个问题置于一个合适的框架中，故事始于第一次世界大战时，那时在巴勒斯坦，犹太人只占据了不到15%的人口比例。他们是如何拥有属于自己的国家的，而巴勒斯坦人又是如何在自己的国家沦为难民和少数派的呢？
问题不得不被问及双方。当谈到过去时，很遗憾对双方而言都没有清晰且一致的答案。无论是否合乎情理，或者恰当与否，入侵加沙留下了什么呢？包括孩子在内，这里有无数的死者将会被哀悼。仇恨已经被点燃，这对于几代人来说，都将很难摆脱。在成人间谈论仇恨并不容易，但孩子间的仇恨又多么糟糕。加沙所发生的给巴勒斯坦人民带来了巨大苦难。对以色列而言，这一结果像是又回到了起点。西班牙前首相菲利普·冈萨雷斯称这是一场“永久的对峙”。
插图：A rocket lands in Gaza city during the conflict in 2014. Daniel Barenboim sees the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a never-ending spiral of violence. Says Barenboim: "The operation in Gaza resulted in a great deal of suffering for the Palestinians. The outcome for Israel is that it's gone back to square one"

2014年冲突期间，一枚火箭在加沙着陆。丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆认为巴以冲突是一个永无休止的暴力循环。他表示，“加沙所发生的给巴勒斯坦人民带来了巨大苦难。对以色列而言，这一结果像是又回到了起点。”
Do you think the conflict is seen from a different perspective at international level after the events of the past summer? Sweden has recognised Palestine as a state, Britain carried out a symbolic ballot on the subject and France has announced plans to recognise Palestine if the peace negotiations fail.
问：您认为经过了去年夏天的事件之后，国际层面是否会从一个不同的角度来看待这一冲突呢？瑞典已经承认巴勒斯坦是一个国家，英国对这一问题也进行了象征性的投票，而法国也已经宣布如果和平谈判失败，就将承认巴勒斯坦。
Barenboim: While international perception is important, in the end, the most urgent thing is the quality of life for people in the region. When it comes to Israel, the pressure from outside is rather weak. We have to tell it like it is. If the USA wanted to, they could solve the conflict in three days by exerting pressure on the Israeli government – I'm not talking about the Israeli state here, just the Israeli government.
The entire Western world has committed itself to guaranteeing Israel's existence and security. That's fair, especially after the Holocaust. But this guarantee ensures nothing but the "permanent stand-off" I mentioned, from which the whole world suffers. If the international community is seriously, genuinely, honestly and determinedly interested in looking after the fate of the Jews, it has to be aware that when it supports the Israeli government's policies, it is only helping maintain the "permanent standoff".
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：虽然国际上的看法很重要，但是说到底，最紧迫的事情还是这一地区人们的生活质量。提到以色列，外界的压力相对较弱。我们不得不这样说。如果美国愿意，他们可以在三天内通过向以色列政府施压来解决冲突。我这里指的不是以色列国家，仅仅是以色列政府。
整个西方世界都承诺要保证以色列的存在与安全。这是公平的，尤其是在大屠杀之后。但是这一保证除了我提到的“永久的僵局”外，什么也确保不了，这正是全世界所遭遇的。如果国际社会严肃、真诚、公正、坚决地对关心犹太人的命运感兴趣，就必须意识到，当其支持以色列政府的政策时，只有助于维持“永久的僵局”。
In 2010, you listed a number of guidelines for the United States to abide by in dealing with the conflict. Some time has passed since then. Did you expect more of Obama's Middle East policies?
问：2010年，您列出了一系列美国在处理冲突时所遵循的指导方针。一段时间过去了，您对奥巴马的中东政策有更多期待吗？
Barenboim: I remember his speech in Cairo. That was the first time I thought we would finally see light at the end of the tunnel. But that speech didn't change reality. However, the discourse has since adapted to reality.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：我记得他在开罗的演讲。那是我第一次觉得我们终于能在隧道的尽头看到曙光了。然而，那次演讲并没有改变现实情况。自那以后，演说已经适应于现实。
The Gaza conflict has disappeared from the front pages. Are you afraid it is losing significance at political level too, in the face of more urgent threats such as Islamic State and the Ebola epidemic?
问：加沙冲突已经从头版消失。在面对诸如伊斯兰国家和埃博拉病毒等更紧迫的威胁时，您是否担心加沙冲突也会在政治层面失去意义呢？
Barenboim: Since the fall of the Berlin Wall 25 years ago, the world has been suffering from a lack of leadership. During the Cold War, there was a balance. Then everything turned to one side, and the West began to behave in an uncontrollable manner as if it was the victor, as if capitalism were the answer to all the world's suffering. With the loss of the United States' hegemony and moral authority, we're at a unique moment in history, in which various conflicts like Islamic State, terrorism in Afghanistan, the situation in Ukraine or the Arab-Israeli conflict well up again and again and alternate. That's not because the world's individual leaders don't tackle the problems, but because we simply don't have a leading power. That's the key problem I've observed since the fall of the Wall.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：自从25年前柏林墙倒塌以来，世界一直处于缺乏领导的困境中。冷战期间，世界曾保持着一种平衡。然后一切都转向一边，西方开始以一种无法控制的方式行事，仿佛它就是胜利者，仿佛资本主义是世界一切苦难的答案。伴随着美国的霸权与道德权威的丧失，我们正处于历史上一个极为特殊的时刻。在这一阶段，诸如伊斯兰国家、阿富汗的恐怖主义、乌克兰局势和阿以冲突等各类冲突一次又一次交替出现。这并不是因为世界各国的领导人没有处理这些问题，而仅仅是因为我们根本没有领导力。这是自柏林墙倒塌以来我观察到的关键问题。
插图：Breaking boundaries: Daniel Barenboim conducting the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, which is made up of young musicians from Spain, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey and Iran. Barenboim's aim is to overcome cultural differences and conflicts through music
突破界限：丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆指挥西东合集管弦乐团，该乐团由来自西班牙、巴勒斯坦、以色列、黎巴嫩、叙利亚、约旦、埃及、土耳其和伊朗的年轻音乐家组成。巴伦博伊姆的目标是通过音乐克服文化差异与冲突。
Mr Barenboim, you're one of the most significant living musicians of our day. Why do you think it's so important to devote yourself to other world problems aside from your work?
问：巴伦博伊姆先生，您是现今在世的最重要的音乐家之一。您为什么认为投身于工作之外的世界其他问题如此重要呢？
Barenboim: My friend Edward Said wrote a book about the role of the intellectual in society. Said said that the intellectual has a moral obligation to criticise the establishment. There are a lot of people in the world of music, both on stage and in the audience, who consider music a wonderful thing and who live in ivory towers. I don't like ivory towers. I feel I have a responsibility with the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra. The democracy we enjoy in this part of the world grants us certain rights, but it also imposes obligations on us.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：我的朋友爱德华·萨义德写过一本关于知识分子的社会角色的书。萨义德认为知识分子有批判当权者的道德义务。在音乐的世界里有很多人，无论是在舞台上还是观众中，他们将音乐视作一件美好的事物，并且生活在象牙塔里。我不喜欢象牙塔。我觉得我对西东合集管弦乐团有责任。我们在这部分世界里享有民主赋予我们的一定权利，但同时它也给我们施加了义务。
Would you ever go into politics?
问：您是否会进入政界？
Barenboim: Absolutely not. As a citizen, I have the right to express my opinion freely. And this is where we come to the dangerous issue of anti-Semitism. It cannot be that I'm automatically called an anti-Semite because I criticise the Israeli government. There are two things we must never forget: firstly, the Palestinians are Semites just like us Jews, and secondly, what's being criticised is the actions of a government and not a nation in itself.
丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆：当然不。作为一个公民，我拥有自由表达观点的权利。就像我们在这里讨论反犹太主义的危险话题。不能因为我批评以色列政府，就把我自动定义为反犹分子。有两件事我们永远不能忘记：首先，巴勒斯坦人就同我们犹太人一样；其次，被批评的是政府的行为，而不是一个国家本身。
Interview conducted by Maria Santacecilia
由玛丽亚·圣塞西莉亚采访
© Deutsche Welle 2014
德国之声2014
Translated from the German by Katy Derbyshire
凯蒂·德比夏尔翻译自德语
Together with Edward Said, conductor Daniel Barenboim (born in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in 1942) founded the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra in 1999. The orchestra brings together musicians from Spain, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey and Iran. He has also been head conductor at the Staatsoper unter den Linden (Berlin) since 1992 and has conducted at the Milan Scala since 2011. Throughout this time, he has also continued his career as a pianist on major stages of the world.
1999年，指挥家丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆（1942年出生于阿根廷的布宜诺斯艾利斯）与爱德华·萨义德一起创立了西东合集管弦乐团。该乐团汇集了来自西班牙、巴勒斯坦、以色列、黎巴嫩、叙利亚、约旦、埃及、土耳其和伊朗的音乐家。1992年起，巴伦博伊姆也担任柏林国立歌剧院的指挥，自2011年以来，他出任米兰斯卡拉歌剧院指挥。在此期间，他仍旧在世界主要的舞台上继续他的钢琴家生涯。
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【古典音乐译文公众号】1、作曲家拉威尔1928年演讲丨“真正的艺术作品是不可能靠分析鉴定的”；2、你怎么看音乐家找工作越来越难丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（上篇）；3、他曾声明永远不在器乐演奏比赛中担任评委丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（下篇）；4、布伦德尔谈莫扎特丨到底什么让他的音乐如此奇妙? 5、被遗忘的克莱门第丨他的键盘音乐文献如何影响海顿、莫扎特、贝多芬以及浪漫时期？6、弓在弦上，揉转成美丨与梅纽因对谈小提琴艺术；7、MTT谈马勒丨“他的音乐已经进入了我的心灵，永不磨灭。” 8、盛原采访米科夫斯基丨“我对钢琴大师班没有太大的信任”；9、富特文格勒丨如何理解贝多芬交响曲；10、从钢琴生产数量看，中国有多少万琴童？11、肖邦大赛后的齐默尔曼丨他不想只做肖邦专家；11、科尔曼丨面对贝多芬，便好似在和我们的灵魂对话；贝多芬的伟大，就在于他的平凡；12、富特文格勒丨巴赫为何重要？13、阿巴多丨音乐没有妥协可言；14、德彪西丨“古典诗歌有自己的生命。” 15、勋伯格丨曾经只有一位钢琴家擅长演奏贝多芬；16、指法、技巧和生动的音乐丨米科夫斯基谈钢琴；17、在卢塞恩（琉森）采访富特文格勒丨“很多指挥家只掌握了初级的技术。他们不是在指挥演奏音乐，而仅仅是在打拍子。” 18、康德拉辛丨深入探讨肖斯塔科维奇；19、聆听海顿遇到的最大问题是什么？ 20、钢琴家齐默尔曼丨关于拉赫玛尼诺夫两首钢琴协奏曲的访谈
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